Audition Hell - Is this just me?

[TimR]

[quote name='the_skezz' post='969326' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:14 PM']I don't like playing the root note when I reckon something else would sound better, but I'm happy to do it...if the guitarist will let me tell him what to play on the guitar for any songs that I write. Of course, trying to get them to understand this can be a difficult matter.


Me: "Right, I've got an instrumental that I've written, nothing fancy but I reckon it could be good. I'll show it to you at practise on Saturday if you want."

Guitarist: "Awesome, you play it and I'll start soloing over the top of it..."

Me: "Erm...it doesn't have a solo in it..."

Guitarist: "What?!? Really?! Alright then, I'll just come up with some other riffs over it..."


Needless to say, it never came to frution

I'm happy to play a bassline that someone else wrote for their song (my current band doesn't see me slapping a solo into Blitzkreig Bop) but for me it has to be a two-way street. I know there are plenty of bands out there who are all the better because one person pretty much dictates the songs, but I myself wouldn't feel happy in them...guess I'm just awkward that way [/quote]

Its the note-for-note dictation that is bad. Why get a bass player in who is expert at playing bass lines then tell him what you want him to play.

Asking for a style, then saying I don't like that bit and asking if you can you change it is no problem.

Two way street. I'd have no problem telling a guitarist to play a different inversion, rhythm or use a different effect.

It's a band and supposed to be a co-operative.

Singer-songwriter is different. You just need to be clear what you are in.

[the_skezz]

[quote name='TimR' post='969336' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:19 PM']It's a band and supposed to be a co-operative.

Singer-songwriter is different. You just need to be clear what you are in.[/quote]

Very true. That's pretty much the best way of putting it IMO.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' post='968727' date='Sep 26 2010, 07:40 PM']The guitarist says I'm playing the "wrong" notes as I'm playing the D an octave higher up.[/quote]

Why would you? If the song has some sort of low bass notes holding the song down why would you play an octave higher, and thereby changing the feel of the song?

Im just asking. Its sounds to me like you wanted to change the part even before you played a note as you could have used a drop D.

IME if someone has written and recorded a song a certain way, i would at least try and keep close to it. At least at the audition. Im sure most bands will let you add a few bits etc but it has to be within the context of the song, and if its not your song you need to be careful.

No offence meant, its just something that stood out in you post, and along with you "needing" to change the bass parts that someone else had written i feel you are definitely looking at the wrong bands. You sound liek you would be bored viged playing root notes, but sometimes this is all that called for.

All IMO of course.

Edited September 27, 2010 by dave_bass5

[Lozz196]

I think the thing about this is, its a question of timing.

At an audition, you are trying to gain a position in a band, therefore you ask what the requirements are, and, will you have licence to improvise/change parts, once you are fully up to speed with the existing songs, and, will your input be sought on new songs. if the answers aren`t to your liking, well the band have failed you auditioning them.

But I`m a firm believer in learning something properly, before trying to change it, and also, only change it if necessary, not just because you can. The word being change, not improvise. Back In Black by AC/DC could be vastly changed, but would it have improvised it, with the song retaining the same feeling?

[TimR]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' post='969334' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:16 PM']...
It's possibly a style thing too. I basically taught myself to play bass by learning stuff like Quadrophenia and RHCP stuff. I don't know if that quite comes across in my playing, but that's all bass driven music to a degree, so maybe it has. The ultimate irony (and I have no idea why this is at all) is that my own playing style doesn't translate on my own material too much, which always has quite simple or functional bass parts in comparison with what I've done with or for other people. Maybe I subconciously do that to give other folk room to fill out. I have no idea why it's the case. Maybe I feel deep down like if I sit back, I'm insulting the person who has written the song by not coming up with something really good when possibly simplicity (or just slightly simpler) might be what they want. Possibly I'm just trying too hard and it's coming out in a different way to other people.
...[/quote]

There are two ways to come up with a bass line.

Start busy and refine or start simple and build.

I prefer the second. Start with roots and add passing phrases, licks, unison riffs or whatever you need to add interest to the SONG not to add interest to the bass line.

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='969373' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:39 PM']Why would you? If the song has some sort of low bass notes holding the song down why would you play an octave higher, and thereby changing the feel of the song?

Im just asking. Its sounds to me like you wanted to change the part even before you played a note as you could have used a drop D.

IME if someone has written and recorded a song a certain way, i would at least try and keep close to it. At least at the audition. Im sure most bands will let you add a few bits etc but it has to be within the context of the song, and if its not your song you need to be careful.

No offence meant, its just something that stood out in you post, and along with you "needing" to change the bass parts that someone else had written i feel you are definitely looking at the wrong bands. You sound liek you would be bored viged playing root notes, but sometimes this is all that called for.

All IMO of course.[/quote]


I played the song an octave up because the guitarist was playing with ludicrous amounts of bass and distortion in his sound. If I'd tuned down, I might well have been nothing more than some extra EQ on the kick drum as the bass would have been inaudible (which it almost actually was in the recordings). It didn't change anything at all other than making the lower end a bit tighter. I did try it and it sounded really mushy. I really didn't change very much at all if you discount that. Though maybe that's a fundamental change? No offence taken at all as it's a valid question.

Ironically, I always start simple and build up, not the other way round. Maybe I 'm just going too far and trying to be too clever.

MaxRossell's post about my attire was really amusing and one I didn't think about. I don't favour thrash t shirts at all though I have probably set myself up for it with that photo and I can see his point. The photo on my myspace was at a gig where the singer/guitarist asked myself and the drummer to dress a bit smarter. We thought it'd be really funny to wear silly clothes, so I wore a thrash t-shirt and the drummer wore a cravat and Fez. Stupid I know, but really amusing at the time as it forced the singer to change. Later on I thought I looked like a decent photo so I put it on my site. Possibly I should have been more careful about what kind of message it sent out about me. I certainly wouldn't go to an audition with a t shirt like that unless it was a band that sounded like Guns N Roses.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='969318' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:07 PM']Again, it's not an assumption I would have made had it been just one of his guitars. It occurs to me I should point out that in the photos I've seen of him he's got long black hair and favours thrash t-shirts. Not again that that absolutely certifies him as being "that" type of player, but you gotta admit it's a pretty easy assumption to make.

He didn't make it as far as the audition. I asked him if he had gear, he said "Yeah, I have three Ibanez RGs, won't touch anything else." I asked him if he was joking, he said no, so I "forgot" to invite him to try out.[/quote]

It's subjective obviously. He wasn't going to fit in with the asthetic of your band, that's for sure. He might have been the most amazing player though. Most people (I know) do play lots of different styles of music.

[algmusic]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='969375' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:39 PM']I think the thing about this is, its a question of timing.

At an audition, you are trying to gain a position in a band, therefore you ask what the requirements are, and, will you have licence to improvise/change parts, once you are fully up to speed with the existing songs, and, will your input be sought on new songs. if the answers aren`t to your liking, well the band have failed you auditioning them.

But I`m a firm believer in learning something properly, before trying to change it, and also, only change it if necessary, not just because you can. The word being change, not improvise. Back In Black by AC/DC could be vastly changed, but would it have improvised it, with the song retaining the same feeling?[/quote]

+1 too ,many people change things with attitude that they know better.. try it first, it might work.. If you're joining a band that has gigged for a while.. you need time to know the band and what works, then if it sounds right you could change it within that vibe and you're style, but if that causes too much conflict, you're in the wrong band.. just make sure it needs changing and you're mature enough to leave it as it is if it sounds great..

I heard something from Steve Gadd.. you don't like what you're playing... start your own band

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Alfie' post='969322' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:10 PM']I don't think its unreasonable to dictate what type of instrument to play if it is integral to the concept of the band. People forget that being in a band is a visual performance as much as an musical one. If three-quarters of a band are trying to present a beaten-up vintage concept and the other quarter is totally different it will undermine the whole idea of the band and look ridiculous. Some bands don't care about the visuals and that's cool, some care very much about the visuals and that is also cool, it's pointless arguing about it.[/quote]
+1
Imagine auditioning for (say) the Bootleg Beatles without a violin bass.

[purpleblob]

This has been a very interesting read.

I have no interest in playing in "other peoples" bands at the moment as I liked to do my own things and so I sympathise with the OP in his quest to find a suitable band. I absolutely agree that an audition is just like a job interview, you obviously have to be prepared to bend to the requirements of the job and obviously need to make sure it suits your requirements also. A band is no different.

Wolverinebass, if you stated clearly that you'd want to interpret the music your own way then these bands shouldn't have even entertained you if they weren't prepared to allow you to do your own thing, this said when joining a band with existing material, you have to expect that they're going to generally want things played the same way (or near enough) as written - it's a two way thing.

As others have said, I think maybe you need to look for different types of bands or try and start your own to allow you to be the person who dictates what you play. Obviously it's hard work starting your own band, but it may be worth the effort to do something you want to do.

[JTUK]

All sounds like a mountain out of a molehill to me.

The audition didn't work for either or both parties.
Either approach them differently so you get the call over whether you get the gig or not, or keep looking.

If you are going to be picky and can afford to be, do it from a position of strenght..ie get the gig first. IMV

[JimmySims]

Having been on both sides of the audition process, I can say without a shadow of doubt, they are the worst most anxiety inducing experiences for all parties. I'd rather spoon my own eyes out than go to most auditions; I've been to quite a few, and not had much from most other than a raised heart rate and an inability to play my instrument properly. Unfortunately they're a necessary evil for most bands, cos let's face it, who knows that many musicians!?

From the other side, when I've been auditioning people for bands, the first thing you look at is the instrument, and you/we/one can't help but have ideas about how people play and who they are based on what instrument they pull out of their bag/case. If someone turns up auditioning for a pop/rock band on guitar with a double neck Ibanez Gem, the first thing I'm going to say is "Just pay the parts as they are written/recorded"; but if the guy/girl pulls out an old telecaster or something a bit more basic, I'm likely to just let them do their thing and maybe listen to their ideas without too much prejudice.

I'm not saying that these things are right, but I think that if you want to be left alone to do your own thing and play a little outside the box, you might want to start off really REALLY slow, so people get used to you before they let you change their babies (songs). Most people when they think of Bass, think of a P-Bass playing root notes; so give them that to start off with, then you can gradually start expanding their minds by dropping the odd inversion or a-tonal hemi-demi-semi-quaver tapping fill.

Jimmy Sims

[maxrossell]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='969495' date='Sep 27 2010, 02:14 PM']It's subjective obviously. He wasn't going to fit in with the asthetic of your band, that's for sure. He might have been the most amazing player though. Most people (I know) do play lots of different styles of music.[/quote]

That's possible. These days though on reflection I'm not always looking for the most amazing of players either.

Look at it this way: my band recently sacked our other guitar player because of overwhelming creative differences. It wasn't even that he was totally unprepared to go along with what the drummer, the bassist and I agreed would be the bet course of action, but every time it was a protracted fight to get him to even consider it, then even more coaxing and cajoling to bring him around to it. Eventually it was like everything he did in the band was some massive favour to us because he'd rather be doing something else.

Sounds like he was in the wrong band, right? I thought so too. On several occasions we gave him the option of walking away, no hard feelings, but every time he was adamant that he wanted to be in the band and he loved what we were doing.

But here's the thing: Above I described our music as kind of dirty old rock with a very creaky, vintagey feel, right? All tweed combos and beat-up guitars and so on. Well this dude has a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier. For those who don't know, it's like the holy grail of heavy metal amplifiers. It's got chrome treadplate on the front, and three channels, the third of which sounds like Slayer having an Orgy with Anthrax and Machine Head. Not that the amp doesn't turn down, it's just that firstly if you turn it down it sounds like complete sh*t, and secondly the guitar player wouldn't turn it down anyway.

So every rehearsal, me and the bass player and the drummer were trying to conjure up this warm old-school tone, all clangy sixties voodoo guitars and thumpy, chocolatey rhythm section (we even EQ the mics to get more lo-fi goodness) - and in one corner of the room there's this guy blaring and chugging away on his armored high-gain chainsaw of an amplifier like he's in Judas Priest.

Eventually, after literally two years of pleading with him, he started to [i]consider[/i] buying another amp that would be more suitable for the band. Except the way he put it was "if it means that much to you guys, I'll let you guys help me find a new amplifier". That was pretty much the final straw, so we booted him.

And how good was this guitar player, you ask? Well, the thing is that it's irrelevant. Someone who is completely unwilling to even try to fit into the band without putting up a major fight over it does nothing but hold the band back. Or you can change the band to accommodate them. The rest of us don't want to do that.

[cheddatom]

Heh, OK, all I was saying is that you shouldn't dismiss people without hearing them play IMO. Bassists go on about playing to the song/sound. I'm pretty sure guitarists can do that too. My guitarist has a hughes and kettner half stack "designed for nu-metal" but the gain turns down and he gets great blues tones out of his washburns with two humbuckers and his nu-metal amp. Clearly i wouldn't stay in a band with a guy who won't mould his tone to suit the music. Either him or me would have to leave.

This has got very protracted, my only point was to avoid prejudice when looking for musicians to play with - you never know what you might find.

[algmusic]

+1

[dlloyd]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='970362' date='Sep 28 2010, 09:17 AM']This has got very protracted, my only point was to avoid prejudice when looking for musicians to play with - you never know what you might find.[/quote]

If I'm looking for a person to fit a specific, pre-existing role in a band, I'm going to want to be sure of a few things.

1. They can do what is expected of them as outlined at the outset.
2. They're reliable.
3. They're likely to stick around for a while.
4. I'm likely to enjoy their company.

Pretty much what an employer is looking for when interviewing prospective employees, and for the same reasons.

If I was looking for a band member and they were obviously out of their comfort-zone genre-wise, my concern would be that they wouldn't stick around for long enough to make the venture worthwhile. If I'm auditioning guitarists for a Country and Western gig and a guy walks in with shoulder-length dreadlocks and facial piercings carrying a BC Rich Ironbird and Marshall stack, I probably won't be as likely to give him a call-back as the guy who came in with a telecaster, all other things being equal. His gear would seem to indicate he wouldn't be happy in that band for long.

[cheddatom]

"all other things being equal" perhaps it would be best to ask him if he'd mind changing his image to be more appropriate so that you might judge the two candidates on an equal footing.

I know a guy who is a real shredder but he loves playing in his folk band. Admitedly he takes an acoustic and not his BC Richs, but still, you'd have turned him down and he's great!

[maxrossell]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='970766' date='Sep 28 2010, 03:14 PM']"all other things being equal" perhaps it would be best to ask him if he'd mind changing his image to be more appropriate so that you might judge the two candidates on an equal footing.[/quote]

In an ideal World, everyone would be honest enough to either be open-minded and flexible enough to be willing to adapt to whatever the situation demanded, or honest enough to properly evaluate the situation and admit that on balance, they're probably not right for the job.

However in practice, in my experience, when you start bending over backwards to accommodate people on the offchance the dude with the Dean Razorback and the Megadeth t-shirt might turn out to play amazing slow blues, what usually happens is the guy either loses interest and eventually drops out after wasting two months of your time, putting you back at square one, or he decides your band should be more like how he wants it to be and starts trying to turn it into a thrash band.

Musicians, especially young ones, are generally not thoughtful people who want to do what's best for everyone. Guitar players in particular tend to be musically egocentric and selfish.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='970766' date='Sep 28 2010, 03:14 PM']"all other things being equal" perhaps it would be best to ask him if he'd mind changing his image to be more appropriate so that you might judge the two candidates on an equal footing.[/quote]

Note... what would put me off is the fact he would have come to the audition dressed like that in the first place. While I don't know for certain that the guy with the Telecaster and Cowboy boots is any different, it's obvious that dreadlock guy is not an out-and-out Country and Western fan.

Does he actually listen to C&W?
Is he conversant in the style?
Will his obvious self-identification with another genre colour the way he plays?
Will he be happy playing this stuff for any length of time?

[TimR]

Shouldn't that have all been sorted in the converstation on the phone.

You say "We play X type of music."
He listens and thinks "Well I better dress the part to either fit in or not stand out then."

If the person being auditioned can't even think that far ahead what hope is there?

Imagine turning up for an interview in an office in t-shirt and jeans because that's what you usually wear.

I depped with some guys in a thrash metal band, I don't dress like that normally, but at least I tried to fit in with the image from the first meeting - even if they knew me from other bands I had played in and were asking me on my ability (or at least that's what they told me )

[maxrossell]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='970797' date='Sep 28 2010, 03:44 PM']Will his obvious self-identification with another genre colour the way he plays?[/quote]

I think this is perhaps the salient point in what we're talking about.

It's not the fault of the auditioning band if the auditionee has made a very deliberate attempt to identify with a specific niche of music, both visually and through his choice of equipment. If I was auditioning to be in a death-metal band I wouldn't turn up dressed in corduroy trousers and a tweed jacket with a semi-hollow Gretsch and a '59 Fender Bassman amp, and if I did I couldn't justifiably expect them to somehow guess that I'm also a killer shredder, and I certainly wouldn't blame them for not giving me a shot at it.

It's not a stretch to assume that a guy with a denim jacket with a Cannibal Corpse patch on it, who comes in holding a Jackson Randy Rhoads and pushing a Peavey XXX stack, isn't going to have spent much time brushing up on his Neil Young, and in that situation unless the guy's first words are "don't be fooled by how I look and the gear I play, I love old-style heavy blues and country rock", he probably isn't getting the gig, and I don't think that's particularly close-minded of me.

[skankdelvar]

The thing about auditioning as bassist for an existing band is that all about [i]them[/i]. Joining with any expectation of realising one's personal technique-al agenda is only going to end in tears. In 99% of bands, the bass-player is a subordinate and 'self-expression' should be ruthlessly stamped out.

Basically, one has to fit in on a number of levels, including image. If one auditions wearing inappropriate genre overkill it is foreseeable that one probably won't get the gig. That an auditionee demonstrably lacks the commonsense to anticipate this outcome is the [i]real [/i]indicator of trouble in store. Stupid people are a pain in the arse*. [i]That's[/i] why I wouldn't hire them, no matter how talented they might be.

[size=1]Edit for: * Not a ref to the OP.[/size]

Edited September 29, 2010 by skankdelvar

[Marvin]

As a slight aside, I'm off tonight to meet up with a guitarist and vox/guitarist (I'm taking my pet drummer with me, he needs to get out).

Now I'm a 37 yr old having a mid-life who wears clothes that don't fit properly and show no signs of taste or style. If the other two don't look at all similar the whole thing's off. This despite not even having played a note together.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Marvin

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Marvin' post='970991' date='Sep 28 2010, 06:31 PM']If the other two don't look at all similar the whole thing's off. This despite not even having played a note together. [/quote]
That's the ticket. Musical compatability is [i]so [/i]over-rated on BC. A nice blazer and cravat combination goes a long way in this business.

Either way, have fun, mon petit choufleur.

Edited September 28, 2010 by skankdelvar

[thepurpleblob]

There is a principle that I have successfully applied to hiring in business - "don't hire arses"!! Never mind all that cr*p about competencies and wotnot - a decent person will learn to do the job properly an idiot will always be an idiot no matter how good their skills. You have to spend a lot of time with each other in a band. Getting on with each other is *the* most important thing - the rest will fall out naturally.