DB newb questions about preamp (eg Fishman Platinum)

[Clarky]

As I will be gigging a DB for the first time next month I need to sort out my live gear. I am told (by Mark at BassDirect) that my TC 450 head plus TC 12" cab should work fine with a DB, so I don't need to buy an acoustic specific amp/combo. However, when I plugged in the DB (which has a Shadow 950 pickup) unless the gain was almost completely down I got feedback. This in turn meant I had to have master volume almost to the max and even then it wasn't at all loud.

So do I need some kind of preamp, like a Fishman Platinum, to control the EQ - and if I do, do I plug into the front of the amp or do I bypass the amp EQ altogether and plug into the effects send/return (I forget what its called!) socket at the rear of the amp?

More generally should a DB player have a preamp like a Fishman Platinum in their gig bag for differing back line situations?

[jakenewmanbass]

In short:
Yes
Front
and Yes

I have a platinum pro, and I especially like the phase switch which when playing in a loud band can allow you to get high volume with little or no feedback. It also has an XLR as well as jack output meaning you can send signal to both an amp and a PA. Another I've seen in action was a sansamp which seemed to have good Eq facilities I spoke to the guy using it (Tom Mason a very nice player) and he said it was great for getting rid of some of the less desirable frequencies. He was playing a rather nice bass too... I'm sure that played a big part.

[jakenewmanbass]

Also Clarky, if you're going to be gigging soon have a technique brush up lesson explaining your venture to your teacher and ask for some nice strength building exercises. You could make a huge difference to your strength in a month.

[Clarky]

Thanks Jake - not got a teacher and I could definitely do with a technique brush up. After two hours of practice on Saturday my left forefinger kept curling up involuntarily

Don't suppose you are in the London area any time soon with an hour or two to kill?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Clarky' post='969510' date='Sep 27 2010, 02:24 PM']Thanks Jake - not got a teacher and I could definitely do with a technique brush up. After two hours of practice on Saturday my left forefinger kept curling up involuntarily [/quote]

Ouch!

I keep a Plat Pro in the front pocket of my bag, it's small enough to take everywhere with my other bits and bobs. The features on it definitely do make a big difference in controlling feedback.

I would say stick it in the input unless your amp has a very pronounced character to its EQ that is hard to dial out. In that case try the FX return, it might be easier to get a good sound.

[PaulKing]

+ 1 on the Fishman PlatPro, and into front of amp.
There are plenty other decent pre-amps, but the extra features on the Plat Pro (phase, depth, compressor) make it a real feedback fighter, and gets the best out of your bass.

Sharing technique tips ... I'm always up for that if I can get an hour or two off baby care. I'm West London, where are you?
That bluesy gutsy sound is my thing, and I've crossed a lot of bridges in 20 odd years.

[Clarky]

[quote name='PaulKing' post='970521' date='Sep 28 2010, 11:48 AM']+ 1 on the Fishman PlatPro, and into front of amp.
There are plenty other decent pre-amps, but the extra features on the Plat Pro (phase, depth, compressor) make it a real feedback fighter, and gets the best out of your bass.

Sharing technique tips ... I'm always up for that if I can get an hour or two off baby care. I'm West London, where are you?
That bluesy gutsy sound is my thing, and I've crossed a lot of bridges in 20 odd years.[/quote]
Thanks Paul. I am nr Hammersmith - so also West London - and would welcome advice and tips.

FYI, I have a c.15 year old Andreas Zeller 3/4 bass (carved front, rest is laminate) with Thomastick Spirocore strings and a Shadow 950 pickup and am currently playing through my TC 450 head and TC 1x12 cab - have feedback/volume problems with this so am after a Fishman Platinum preamp.

[PaulKing]

[quote name='Clarky' post='970533' date='Sep 28 2010, 11:56 AM']Thanks Paul. I am nr Hammersmith - so also West London - and would welcome advice and tips.

FYI, I have a c.15 year old Andreas Zeller 3/4 bass (carved front, rest is laminate) with Thomastick Spirocore strings and a Shadow 950 pickup and am currently playing through my TC 450 head and TC 1x12 cab - have feedback/volume problems with this so am after a Fishman Platinum preamp.[/quote]

I'm Ealing .. easy.
Shadow 950 should give you good sound with that set up.
For my music I moved off Spiros a good few years ago, but they're great all round strings.
Dunno much about your amp, but good EQ and yes, preamp should sort it out, somewhat. Feedback is always an issue though.
You'd be welcome to try playing through my Fishman if it helped. And see what you think of synthetic strings...

You have transport? Welcome to drop in at mine at weekends if you fancy, bring the bass? Loud playing not very welcome to the neighbours though!

[Clarky]

Due to unanimous thumbs up from DBers, I have ordered a Platinum from Thomann which has them at a good price (<£140). Will post my experiences once its arrived

[Gareth Hughes]

Hey Clarky - Dampen the afterlength of your strings between the bridge and tailpiece. (I know, this has become my mantra of late). You'd be surprised how much feedback is generated there - those strings just keep ringing, and set the tailpiece ringing - which is all good in a purely acoustic setting (like an orchestra, but who uses them there anymore? ) I was playing electric bass in a big band on Monday night, along with another bass player on upright. He was having hell with low feedback and couldn't EQ it out on his Acoustic Image Clarus+. I reached down and muted his strings and tailpiece and all was good.

[Clarky]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='971391' date='Sep 29 2010, 08:40 AM']Hey Clarky - Dampen the afterlength of your strings between the bridge and tailpiece. (I know, this has become my mantra of late). You'd be surprised how much feedback is generated there - those strings just keep ringing, and set the tailpiece ringing - which is all good in a purely acoustic setting (like an orchestra, but who uses them there anymore? ) I was playing electric bass in a big band on Monday night, along with another bass player on upright. He was having hell with low feedback and couldn't EQ it out on his Acoustic Image Clarus+. I reached down and muted his strings and tailpiece and all was good.[/quote]
Thanks Gareth. What do you mute with - a polishing cloth or similar? And thinking on, I have the pick-up jack affixed to the tail piece - does that have any impact on feedback (probably not, I guess, but worth asking)?

[Gareth Hughes]

You can use anything for a mute - at the minute I have some cut up foam from a panel of studio sound-proofing material (must be a shorter way to say that). Also used a sock when stuck on a tour once. Basically anything strong enough to mimic the pressure of holding a string with your finger. The pickup jack on the tailpiece won't do a lot for calming feedback - it's not heavy enough. I've generally found that for reducing feedback potential you're almost trying to remove all acoustic (ie - resonant) qualities from the instrument - hence why plywood/laminate instruments can be easier to amplify. On a fully carved bass I had once I had to wedge a foam rugby ball between the tailpiece and the body, putting pressure on the top table to stop it from vibrating too much.

Of course, there is a limit to what you should expect volume-wise from amplifying a double bass - at some point you just have to go electric or sort out the rest of the band's volume. And another thing to think about is your perception of how you expect a double bass to sound in a band context. What I mean is that after years of playing electric bass first and foremost and being used to that sound, it took me a long time to realise and accept that a double bass will not have the immediacy and solid tone/punch that comes from an electric - so if that's the sound that your sub-consciously trying to get, then you'll ended up frustrated and drowning in feedback.

As always, I could be wrong.

[slobluesine]

my experience is that practically everyone that complains about not being able to hear a Double Bass is used to playing in Rock bands, particularly Drummers, they're just used to hearing a BG, Jazz/Folk muso's generally dont like loud Bass cos they're used to hearing an Upright

Upright will NEVER compete with a BG for volume, its an expensive time consuming waste of time trying

the Band either turn down or you play BG, so many bands just want the aesthetic coolness of an Upright, some even insist on it and still let the Piano player use an electric

Magnetic Upright pickup is probably the best compromise

[BobVbass]

Hmm not sure about that - with my mag pickup and fishman P Pro I can get as loud as my BG without feedback - and that's right in front of my stack blasting out - no hope in hell of getting i Piezo at even 1/3 that sort of volume.

Does it sound double bassy?...hmm well kind of Fender Precision fretless maybe but like you say the band wants the image not the sound (and I love it )

[slobluesine]

looks like a Precision pup here...

[attachment=60272:ian_jennings.jpg]

Ian Jennings, he gets a great sound

what mag pup do you use Bob?

Edited September 30, 2010 by slobluesine

[Clarky]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='971720' date='Sep 29 2010, 01:55 PM']On a fully carved bass I had once I had to wedge a foam rugby ball between the tailpiece and the body, putting pressure on the top table to stop it from vibrating too much.[/quote]
Blimey, Gareth, the things you DBers carry in your gigbags - now I am expecting a glut of foam rubgy balls for sale on BC!

[BobVbass]

[quote]what pick up are you using at the minute bob?[/quote]

I'm using a schaller at the mo - it's ok; hate the look and it rattles on certain notes - when I have the chance I'm going to try making up a bracket to velcro on with EMG precision 6 string pickups - it's good having a volume knob close t hand when I'm in the middle of a song tho and I can get it stupidly loud

Edited October 1, 2010 by bob_pickard

[slobluesine]

Kent Armstrong do these for £70...
[attachment=60333:01102010.jpg] [attachment=60334:01102010_001.jpg]

bit of glue or velcro and it has a hole through so you can put a small self tapper to the fingerboard, bit noisy cos theres no earthing but i'm gonna try a small line isolator to fix that

i have one on my Upright and EUB

Edited October 1, 2010 by slobluesine

[Beedster]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='971720' date='Sep 29 2010, 01:55 PM']Of course, there is a limit to what you should expect volume-wise from amplifying a double bass - at some point you just have to go electric or sort out the rest of the band's volume. And another thing to think about is your perception of how you expect a double bass to sound in a band context. What I mean is that after years of playing electric bass first and foremost and being used to that sound, it took me a long time to realise and accept that a double bass will not have the immediacy and solid tone/punch that comes from an electric - so if that's the sound that your sub-consciously trying to get, then you'll ended up frustrated and drowning in feedback.

As always, I could be wrong.[/quote]


[quote name='slobluesine' post='972642' date='Sep 30 2010, 01:26 PM']my experience is that practically everyone that complains about not being able to hear a Double Bass is used to playing in Rock bands, particularly Drummers, they're just used to hearing a BG, Jazz/Folk muso's generally dont like loud Bass cos they're used to hearing an Upright

Upright will NEVER compete with a BG for volume, its an expensive time consuming waste of time trying

the Band either turn down or you play BG, so many bands just want the aesthetic coolness of an Upright, some even insist on it and still let the Piano player use an electric

Magnetic Upright pickup is probably the best compromise[/quote]

Spot on guys. Lot of guys out there playing DB but trying to make it sound like a BG, which begs the question........?

Live the DB provides a far more subtle sonic foundation than is generally the case with BG, but if played well, tends to do so with far greater tonal dynamic. The more you try to get the volume up however, the more that dynamic is squashed, until you reach the point at which you have to ask why you're not playing BG.

C

[Clarky]

Completely agree with the above but in my OP I was making the point that with my current rig I was getting feedback even with the gain almost completely off and the master very low - barely even loud enough to compete with an acoustic guitar, let alone a relatively gentle drummer! Hopefully the Fishman will sort this

[TPJ]

[quote name='slobluesine' post='973668' date='Oct 1 2010, 10:37 AM']Kent Armstrong do these for £70...
[attachment=60333:01102010.jpg] [attachment=60334:01102010_001.jpg]

bit of glue or velcro and it has a hole through so you can put a small self tapper to the fingerboard, bit noisy cos theres no earthing but i'm gonna try a small line isolator to fix that

i have one on my Upright and EUB[/quote]

Have you got a link on where to buy please

[slobluesine]

[url="http://www.wdmusic.co.uk/"]http://www.wdmusic.co.uk/[/url]

speak to Aaron Armstrong, he's not usually there until 2pm or so, he keeps US time with his Dad Kent these days

[BobVbass]

Hmm yes I have a Kent Armstrong (seem to remember I bought it after seeing it on your Kay and thinking it looked great ) - I got it off ebay but couldn't figure out how to fit it and the wiring looked like it had been redone by a one armed monkey with twitchy fever.... haven't got round to resoldering it yet... maybe I should give it a go - or maybe we should put two of them together and make a humbucker!!

The Platinum pro phase shift definitely helps with feedback - you get almost double the volume without it and it starts coming on much more slowly - still not loud enough for rock and roll though

Edited October 1, 2010 by bob_pickard

[BobVbass]

did you sell your Kay in the end btw? Lovely bass...

[slobluesine]

Aarons wiring is wrong BTW not sure if he's changed it yet, the first one i got never worked cos his wiring diagram was wrong, he eventually realised and we got it working, when i ordered a second one i insisted he wire it and make sure it worked, pup turned up wired wrong

come back Kent!!!!

SO, if you order one gimme a call and i'll tell you how to wire it

nobody wanted my Kay, overpriced apparently, really glad it didn't sell :wub:

theres an almost identical one here, M-1, Diamond Burst, late 60's

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kay-3-4-Acoustic-Bass-Originally-owned-Henry-Ford-Fa-/170546719979?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b5606ceb"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kay-3-4-Acoustic-Bas...=item27b5606ceb[/url]