What makes a bad bass player?

[waynepunkdude]

Anyone who doesn't have an SVT.

Edited September 29, 2010 by waynepunkdude

[phil.i.stein]

err..spending too much time on forums...?

[danbowskill]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='971872' date='Sep 29 2010, 05:04 PM']2 things in my view:

1. A bass player that can`t lock in with the drummer
2. A bass player who doesn`t play for the song, only for themselves - as in "look at me, I`m so good"[/quote]
aye,totaly agree !

also smack makes a bad un :-D

[danbowskill]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='972003' date='Sep 29 2010, 07:15 PM']Nice one. Bassists that can't mute properly piss me off.

Truckstop[/quote]
this as well :-)

[retroman]

I've alway found YouTube to be a great source of entertainment for bad players

I think most of you guys have hit the nail on the head

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='971881' date='Sep 29 2010, 05:10 PM']There are two types of bad bass players:

1) Bass players who you notice. If you notice the bass player he's doing it wrong.

2) Adam Clayton.[/quote]

Why is Adam Clayton a bad bass player?

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='971881' date='Sep 29 2010, 05:10 PM']There are two types of bad bass players:

1) Bass players who you notice. If you notice the bass player he's doing it wrong.

2) Adam Clayton.[/quote]

He sticks to root and is not very adventurous, but why class him as bad?

Explanation please.

[Marvin]

[quote name='benh' post='971854' date='Sep 29 2010, 04:54 PM']So I wonder, what IS a bad bass player?[/quote]
I'll send you a recording of me playing then you'll know.

[SteveK]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='971881' date='Sep 29 2010, 05:10 PM']There are two types of bad bass players:

1) Bass players who you notice. If you notice the bass player he's doing it wrong.

2) Adam Clayton.[/quote]


[quote name='Pete Academy' post='972081' date='Sep 29 2010, 08:57 PM']He sticks to root and is not very adventurous, but why class him as bad?

Explanation please.[/quote]
Yeah, I too would be interested.
I'm in no way a fan of U2 - I don't own a U2 recording (single or album).
But I do find it quite interesting that AC is often referred to as [i]a rubbish bass player, the luckiest guy in the world[/i] etc which seems to me to be a little unfair.

According to the media U2 were the biggest band in the world, selling vast numbers of records.

Imagine this:
It's mid to late 80s - U2 are in the studio recording With or Without You - It's time for Adam to lay the bass down - Horror of horrors, he has an accident opening a can of baked beans, slices his fingers and can't do the track! - An AC critic/detractor happens to be in the adjoining studio and reluctantly agrees to do the session... [b]but only if he's allowed to do it his way![/b]

Couple of questions:
Would the track still have been their first US number 1?
If Adam Clayton had never recovered and the AC critic/detractor became a permanent member, would they still have achieved "biggest band in the world" status?

Who knows? But what I am fairly certain of - without Adam Clayton U2 would not be the band that we all know and...love(?)

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='TimR' post='971996' date='Sep 29 2010, 07:07 PM']...No little finger...[/quote]
Yeah, the Yakuza make sh*t bass players But I wouldn't want to tell 'em!

[risingson]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='972081' date='Sep 29 2010, 08:57 PM']He sticks to root and is not very adventurous, but why class him as bad?

Explanation please.[/quote]

He's not, and I disagree entirely with the notion that anyone, even if they are limited to chugging along with root notes, make for bad bass players. There's a misconception that limited technique makes you a bad player. Wrong. Badly suited for certain music maybe, but not a bad player. What makes a bad player is not doing what's right for the music. That's it, it doesn't matter how good you are technically, as long as your time keeping is good and your ear is good then you are an acceptable bass player.

I'm not a U2 fan at all really and I'm sure that this is an argument had a million and one times before but answer me one question... could you do anything to improve on a bass line from something like 'Where the Streets Have No Name' or 'New Years Day'? No, because Clayton's lines are right for what's going on. It' literally boils down to that.

[Lozz196]

I actually rate Adam Clayton as a bass player. Why?
Well some of his bass lines, such as New Years Day are the instantly recognisable hook, that everyone remembers.

And, more importantly, it seems that AC/U2 have recognised The Edges talent (and great sounds) on guitar, so AC seems to have made the decision to hold back, and play basslines that let The Edges guitar be the focal point, and to not compete, letting the guitar flourish. All in all, a bassist that is playing for the band, not himself.

Footnote - I just hope in real life he`s a slap-monster, who knocks spots off Mark King, so proving my theory. If he really can only play root notes after 30+ yrs, it kindof disproves it.

Bonus points for Youtube vids of AC in slap-frenzy.

[TimR]

Not the AC argument again.....

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

This is something a lot of lead singers fail to see when their band makes it big time and they go solo. Only to be never heard of again.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='972315' date='Sep 30 2010, 07:59 AM']All in all, a bassist that is playing for the band, not himself.[/quote]

Single most sensible thing I've ever read..........ever.........................................................................In the world..!

Here is the least sensible thing I have ever written as it is only my opinion: -

Very few people can sustain playing quaver root notes in time, with expression, over a whole song. It takes discipline, listening, and a desire to enhance the "whole" sound, and to only be missed when you stop playing.
Therefore I guess a bad player lacks discipline, listening skills and a desire to be part of the "whole"........"please notice me, not the song" kind of thing....but who are we to judge?

I only have 1 U2 album, (Joshua Tree) and I still use it as a good example of simplicity, less is more, with students.

[Conan]

[quote name='TimR' post='972325' date='Sep 30 2010, 08:25 AM']Not the AC argument again.....[/quote]

Let's not forget that not every member of this forum has been a member since the start. There are many of us who have never partaken of "the AC argument", so to stifle their input seems rather rude and unfair.

Again, I'm not a massive U2 fan (I used to be, back in the eighties though). I like the simplicity but solidity. I like his tone and how selective he is. If fans leave a gig or switch off your CD and they are singing the bass line - I guess you could say that you are not a "bad bass player".

A lot of this is motivated by jealousy I guess The "I could be doing that job" mentality...

[Musicman20]

I cant read music, mainly because I was too busy studying for A-Levels/Degree at the time, and now my legal career takes up too much time anyway. I think that IS a disadvantage, but NOT very often. Not in the world of rock/pop/punk/metal/some blues/some funk etc.

I have actually seen a few non-bassist musicians (one was a fantastic saxophone player) who were part of various jazz outfits, and they didnt know ANY theory. How did they get away with it? Feel and talent....raw talent and the fact they knew what to play, and didnt need to stick to any rules. Mavericks!

Id much rather listen and learn rather than read it, but I agree one day I need to learn to read music. It cant be that hard.

I somehow managed to get an A in GCSE music by writing a punk song, a ska song, and getting friends to play drums and sing over the top. I dont know how I managed to get through the theory part of the exam.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Musicman20

[thepurpleblob]

Ones that don't have a bit of humility... ones that think they are better than they are, if you will.

A good player plays something appropriate within the confines of their own ability (we can all be better, skill isn't an absolute).

PS. Why does Adam Clayton get such a hard time? I don't even like U2 and he might not be the most technical player but he seems to fit in. At least he knows about slides and some of the frets above the 7th. There's plenty of players earning more than you and me who only know how to play 8ths on the root in first position

[TimR]

[quote name='Conan' post='972359' date='Sep 30 2010, 09:18 AM']Let's not forget that not every member of this forum has been a member since the start. There are many of us who have never partaken of "the AC argument", so to stifle their input seems rather rude and unfair.

Again, I'm not a massive U2 fan (I used to be, back in the eighties though). I like the simplicity but solidity. I like his tone and how selective he is. If fans leave a gig or switch off your CD and they are singing the bass line - I guess you could say that you are not a "bad bass player".

A lot of this is motivated by jealousy I guess The "I could be doing that job" mentality...[/quote]

Because this is the "What makes a bad bass player thread", not the "Adam Clayton is a bad bass player thread". I think he was cited just to spice things up a bit as any mention of U2 does in any thread.

The thing about playing 8ths is they may not look very exciting or, to the untrained ear, sound very exciting on their own but its all about the groove. Are those 8ths on the beat, behind the beat, ahead of the beat? Where are the accents?

There's a BIG difference between someone playing 8ths badly and someone playing them solidly and in the right place.

8ths on their own don't make a bad player but they do make a not very entertaining player who won't get much camera coverage on the TV. You have to do some dynamic acting like Flea or Harris to make up for that.

[51m0n]

[quote name='blackmn90' post='971982' date='Sep 29 2010, 06:52 PM']thats more a bad musician than bass player. Also how would you know that his playing hasnt already made the track 10x better? You would need to mute the bass. I think anyone can play bass, the difference between us and monkeys is the use of expression through the instrument[/quote]


OK, so a bassist isnt a musician?

Thats daft, to be a good bassist you first have to be a good musician. Every comment on here about what makes a bad bassist also applies in the more general sense as to what makes a bad musician, since all bassists (good or bad) are to a lesser or greater extent musicians.


You cant quantifiably say how much better a bassline makes a song (ie 10x better). IMO you can definitely say when a bass line does nothing for a song other than to exist and maybe add a bit of low end to the mix, ie it adds nothing useful musically, no real sense of self expression.

Personally I often find that the situations I'm tlking about the bass mutes itself! It literally does nothing for the track. 'Muting' it is unnecesary. There must be occasions where a bassline ruins a track, but I actually think this is rare as the rest of the band usually get to tell the bassist to stop being so daft!

I can certainly have an opinion as to whether or not a bass line does something or not for the music as a whole. Granted its subjective, and on the strength of a couple of songs it would be unfair to consider a player a bad bassist, but if you hear a few tracks (say an albums worth) and not one bassline on that album really in anyway lifts a single song to be greater than it would be without that bass line, then thats just not a good bass player, or musician if you prefer.

You are right though, I was looking beyond the absolutely obvious criteria expected, ie decent enough technique to play the lines they need to play for their musical endeavours, good enough timing to keep it tight enough for the genre, good enough ear or theory to put a line together at all, however simple. Without which they are not a bassist yet anyway.

Dont mistake this for a bashing of the root note style of playing, it really isnt, you can play root notes all the way, but with a passion and groove that is undeniable, and somewhere on an album of that there will be a rhythmic device that lifts a song, or an inflection, or just where the line sits in the pocket. Instant win! Or it can just be as effective as turning up a bit of bass eq on the rhythm guitar, for the whole album, in which case it doesnt really add any more than doing that would to the album, and is not so good!

All in my very subjective opinion!

[benh]

Enjoying reading through the replies, this really interests me because I hear so many people slating bass players who I think are great (Adam Clayton being one of them!) That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the odd noodle about a la Mark King/Victor Wooten, but it really irritates me when you see some idiot playing million mile an hour slap bass over a "pub rock" ballad and thinking they're "it". That personifies bad bass playing for me.

PS about the "in the real world of gigs tablature doesn't exist" - totally true. I got the biggest kick up the rear end to learn how to read notation when I tried to do a gig reading from TAB for a stage production of "Little Shop of Horrors" a few years ago, mistake!

[TimR]

[quote name='51m0n' post='972450' date='Sep 30 2010, 10:35 AM']OK, so a bassist isnt a musician?

Thats daft, to be a good bassist you first have to be a good musician. Every comment on here about what makes a bad bassist also applies in the more general sense as to what makes a bad musician, since all bassists (good or bad) are to a lesser or greater extent musicians.


....

Personally I often find that the situations I'm tlking about the bass mutes itself! It literally does nothing for the track. 'Muting' it is unnecesary. There must be occasions where a bassline ruins a track, but I actually think this is rare as the rest of the band usually get to tell the bassist to stop being so daft!
...[/quote]

Correct, but I will clarify exactly what I mean by muting.

All musicians must be aware of note lengths. It's not just related to bass players. It's something I've noticed amongst bass players AND rhythm guitarists. Often they will leave the notes ringing until they play the next note. Often this is not a problem but will destroy the feel of a song and make the song sound cluttered if notes are not kept to their proper length.

This may be a self taught thing. My son (6) is learning trumpet. The first thing he is doing is practicing playing quarter notes. With a trumpet you have to keep blowing right to the end of the note or the sound stops and you must stop blowing or the sound continues. With a bass or any plucked instrument you have to mute or you end up playing a dotted quarter note or worse...

Edited September 30, 2010 by TimR

[thunderbird13]

Well its all totally subjective but after failing what seems like hundreds of auditions the feedback I have received for myself and on why I didn’t get it are ;

· Not using dynamics enough

· Playing 8 th notes when something else would be appropriate

· Playing over the 12th fret ( some people really hate this)

· Overplaying / Underplaying

· Having inappropriate gear ( I was not allowed to play with a punk band because I had a headless bass )

· Having no gear

· Not being familiar with the style of material

· Using a pick or fingers depending on what the guitarist thinks is cool

· Turning up dressed a as a wizard

Not sure what to make of that list !

[Conan]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='972479' date='Sep 30 2010, 11:02 AM']Turning up dressed a as a wizard[/quote]

Yep. That's the one that above all others defines what makes a "bad bass player".

[benh]

QUOTE (thunderbird13 @ Sep 30 2010, 11:02 AM) Turning up dressed a as a wizard

[quote name='Conan' post='972490' date='Sep 30 2010, 11:07 AM']Yep. That's the one that above all others defines what makes a "bad bass player".[/quote]

Does dressing up in a lycra catsuit and wearing size 12 platform boots count??

[TimR]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='972479' date='Sep 30 2010, 11:02 AM']· Playing over the 12th fret ( some people really hate this)[/quote]

You ACTUALLY did that in an audition?