Speaker Size & Bass

[flyfisher]

According to Jon Burton, The Prodigy's chief live sound engineer:

[quote]"There’s a lot to be said for having large amounts of loudspeakers, and big loudspeakers make proper bass noise. There’s no way you can get a good bass sound out of a small speaker, it just doesn’t work.”[/quote]

The full article is in the October edition of Sound On Sound magazine and gives more details about his liberal use of 18-inch subs and, in case that's not quite enough, his use of triple 21-inch 'infra' subwoofers to handle the 15-50Hz frequencies.

Might as well ditch my 2x10 cab then.

[4-string-thing]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='975104' date='Oct 2 2010, 04:28 PM']Might as well ditch my 2x10 cab then. [/quote]

Yup!

[markstuk]

Or buy another 15 2x10's :-)

[4-string-thing]

[quote name='markstuk' post='975173' date='Oct 2 2010, 05:17 PM']Or buy another 15 2x10's :-)[/quote]

A bit O.T.T maybe, adding a 2x15 would do the trick....

[flyfisher]

Or replace my 1x15 with one of those triple-21s perhaps?

[Marvin]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='975104' date='Oct 2 2010, 04:28 PM']According to Jon Burton, The Prodigy's chief live sound engineer:



The full article is in the October edition of Sound On Sound magazine and gives more details about his liberal use of 18-inch subs and, in case that's not quite enough, his use of triple 21-inch 'infra' subwoofers to handle the 15-50Hz frequencies.

Might as well ditch my 2x10 cab then. [/quote]

The bloke sounds a bit of an idiot. Most of the range between 15-50Hz you won't hear anyway so will make no difference to the 'sound'. It'll just make things shake, if you have the volume up enough. I'd also question what he means by a good bass sound. It's probably not what I'd be looking for, more and likely some inaudible muddy mess, like you get in most crappy clubs.

[velvetkevorkian]

Yes, I suspect the 'tone goals' of The Prodigy and your average bassist are probably a bit different- they probably do want that intestine rupturing, skull exploding bass rather than a clear articulate bass tone.

[flyfisher]

I know what you mean, but I'd like to think a band like The Prodigy could afford rather more than an idiot as their live sound engineer.

Fair point about the audibility of the 'infra' subwoofers, and I guess that's implicit in the name, but I'm sure they add to the overall physical experience.

[JJTee]

Having seen The Prodigy on the Fat of The Land tour, 1997/98 in Brighton, I can vouch for the level of bass their old PA system could generate. Without a doubt, the heaviest, deepest, most powerful bass I have ever heard occurred when Smack My Bitch Up kicked in. I could feel the front of my eyeballs vibrating - rather unnerving...

[ShergoldSnickers]

Loudspeakers come as a system. Than means the drivers [i][b]and[/b][/i] the cabinet they are placed in, with all the compromises in port tuning, crossover design etc. Blandly saying big speakers are better without defining the precise context, is as idiotic as saying big paintings are better. Speaker size is just one minor component in the whole system mix.

Edit: because I can.

Edited October 2, 2010 by ShergoldSnickers

[machinehead]

Balls. The tiny speakers in my ipod earphones produce an excellent bass sound.

Frank.

[Marvin]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='975287' date='Oct 2 2010, 06:44 PM']Loudspeakers come as a system. Than means the drivers [i][b]and[/b][/i] the cabinet they are placed in, with all the compromises in port tuning, crossover design etc. Blandly saying big speakers are better without defining the precise context, is as idiotic as saying big paintings are better. Speaker size is just one minor component in the whole system mix.

Edit: because I can.[/quote]
Hence the fellow should be given his P45 and told to 'op it.

[Marvin]

[quote name='machinehead' post='975294' date='Oct 2 2010, 06:50 PM']Balls. The tiny speakers in my ipod earphones produce an excellent bass sound.

Frank.[/quote]
Can I borrow them please? Mine create far to much upper mids.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='machinehead' post='975294' date='Oct 2 2010, 06:50 PM']Balls. The tiny speakers in my ipod earphones produce an excellent bass sound.

Frank.[/quote]

Actually they don't. They produce the harmonics of excellent bass sound and your brain makes up the other bit. Like lots of things... it's complicated

[TimR]

He's talking about bass in the context of keyboards. Bottom G is 51Hz on a bass guitar, but keyboards will go down to 27Hz and that's before you add any sub harmonic synthesis.

As far as I'm aware they don't have a bass player.

Edited October 2, 2010 by TimR

[JTUK]

Unusable..but a nice room shaking feeling.

[Marvin]

But that still makes little difference to his argument. The size of a driver is, as Snicks pointed out, only a small factor in determining the sound. The fact that keyboards will go down to 27Hz is somewhat academic because you can't hear it.

Personally I'd rather have what determines the qualities of a loudspeaker system explained by someone who makes them rather than just uses them. Having spent the last few weeks reading material on, and asking what seems like an infinite number of questions relating to drivers and loudspeakers, from those informed responses this guy comes across as a complete idiot.

[daz]

[quote name='TimR' post='975319' date='Oct 2 2010, 07:11 PM']He's talking about bass in the context of keyboards. Bottom G is 51Hz on a bass guitar, but keyboards will go down to 27Hz and that's before you add any sub harmonic synthesis.

As far as I'm aware they don't have a bass player.[/quote]

exactly what i was thinking....

...........................................not the 27Hz thing.(which i dint know) The 'they dont have a bass player', bit.

[ironside1966]

Add the words loud and sub then it kind of makes more sence.

[TimR]

[quote name='Marvin' post='975364' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:00 PM']But that still makes little difference to his argument. The size of a driver is, as Snicks pointed out, only a small factor in determining the sound. The fact that keyboards will go down to 27Hz is somewhat academic because you can't hear it.

Personally I'd rather have what determines the qualities of a loudspeaker system explained by someone who makes them rather than just uses them. Having spent the last few weeks reading material on, and asking what seems like an infinite number of questions relating to drivers and loudspeakers, from those informed responses this guy comes across as a complete idiot.[/quote]

That's odd I can hear the bottom A on my piano perfectly well.

You just need huge amounts of power to get the same percieved volume. Hence loads of big speakers.

What context are you asking about loudspeakers? If you are looking at standard bass speakers their response falls off dramatically below 100Hz.

[Mr. Foxen]

This is in the context of PA subs, and doesn't apply to bass very much. Vice versa is true. There is no point running a bunch of 10" sub drivers, when the physics and costs benefit large drivers for sub use, because it doesn't cost much more to make a 15 over a 10, and the 15 will move more air within the same suspension limits. Beaming frequencies and such don't apply, because there is no mids or highs going on. It is just not worth making 10" pro audio PA subs, unless they get a bit specialist like really narrow ones or something.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Marvin' post='975261' date='Oct 2 2010, 06:22 PM']The bloke sounds a bit of an idiot. Most of the range between 15-50Hz you won't hear anyway so will make no difference to the 'sound'. It'll just make things shake, if you have the volume up enough. I'd also question what he means by a good bass sound. It's probably not what I'd be looking for, more and likely some inaudible muddy mess, like you get in most crappy clubs.[/quote]

+1. Most of what you "hear" of the bass sound is actually the first order harmonic or the octave or whatever it's called.

Also i would like to point out that it has as much if not more to do with the actual enclosure and the total speaker area rather than just the size of the speakers themselves: My markbass cab has 5hz lower frequency response than the traveller simply because of the larger enclosure and the front porting as well.

[Protium]

At the end of the day it comes down to moving air, and feeling the bass rather than hearing it. 18's and 21's move loads more air than 10's, simple. The guy is an idiot for using big subs?! Every sound engineer on the planet must be an idiot then

I think TS and many subsequent posters are missing the difference between BASS and BASS GUITAR.

[thinman]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='975382' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:19 PM']This is in the context of PA subs, and doesn't apply to bass very much. Vice versa is true. There is no point running a bunch of 10" sub drivers, when the physics and costs benefit large drivers for sub use, because it doesn't cost much more to make a 15 over a 10, and the 15 will move more air within the same suspension limits. Beaming frequencies and such don't apply, because there is no mids or highs going on. It is just not worth making 10" pro audio PA subs, unless they get a bit specialist like really narrow ones or something.[/quote]


Hmmm. I built a pair BFM T39 subs for PA use. Each only has a single 10" driver but then the cabinets are 1m high, 400mm wise and about 500m deep. They also include about 2m of folded horn within the cabinet. I admit that they're not designed to go much below 70Hz but they are very efficient at the frequencies people perceive to be deep bass.

I just suspect that many lower-end manufacturers compromise more on enclosures because more complex designs like a horn-loaded design would be too expensive to mass produce. They also prey on the notion that bigger drivers must mean better output and response.

Is it Hoffman's Iron Law that says you can't have wide frequency response, efficiency and small enclosure size - generally just two of them?

[ironside1966]

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is this.
A note is made up of the fundamental then a succession of harmonics so when people say the can hear a low note or sound from a very small speakers they are hearing the harmonics not the fundamental
To reproduce bass you need to shift air speaker size is not important but large speakers make more sence also the excursion plays a large part twice the movement twice the air.
How ported cabs work is they are tuned to delay the sound from the rear to reinforce the next peak or trough as low sounds have very large waves the cabinet needs to be large enough as the longer the waves travel the lower the frequency.
Hope that makes sense.
So for a gig like the prodigy where you want the sound to be felt as well as heard and by lots of big speaker he probably means the enclosure not the drivers

Edited October 2, 2010 by ironside1966