Speaker Size & Bass

[4-string-thing]

Clearly the guy is talking about a P.A system, not a bass guitar rig. The 2 are obviously not the same, and surely people use 10" 12" or 15" for bass guitars because of the tone or sound they produce, not because of the frequencies they can reproduce.

Nobody would use lots of 18 or 21" drivers for bass guitar, because while it may reproduce a low B, it would probably sound horrible!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='975401' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:44 PM']So for a gig like the prodigy where you want the sound to be felt as well as heard and by blots of big speaker he probably means the enclosure not the drivers[/quote]
Nope, he's definitely referring to the driver sizes, although that will of course also mean a big enclosure. Here's a bit more on the 'infras' . . .

[i]"They're a triple 21-inch; a cardioid box with two forward-facing 21-inch speakers and one rear-facing 21-inch speaker"[/i]

I guess that's a big speaker in all senses of the word.

[thinman]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='975401' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:44 PM']To reproduce bass you need to sh*t air[/quote]

We've all done that after a few beers...

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='thinman' post='975397' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:42 PM']Hmmm. I built a pair BFM T39 subs for PA use. Each only has a single 10" driver but then the cabinets are 1m high, 400mm wise and about 500m deep. They also include about 2m of folded horn within the cabinet. I admit that they're not designed to go much below 70Hz but they are very efficient at the frequencies people perceive to be deep bass.

I just suspect that many lower-end manufacturers compromise more on enclosures because more complex designs like a horn-loaded design would be too expensive to mass produce. They also prey on the notion that bigger drivers must mean better output and response.

Is it Hoffman's Iron Law that says you can't have wide frequency response, efficiency and small enclosure size - generally just two of them?[/quote]

Those are exactly what I refer to when I said specialist really narrow ones. If you had Prodigy sized tours, you'd be using 15" loaded Titans and Tubas right, efficiency isn't an issue either, they have the power to make it happen? Plus prodigy want sub 70 hz gut jiggling stuff.

Hoffman's iron law is size, sensitivity and low extension. Width of frequency response doesn't matter to subs, they are only for lows and nothing else. When it comes to PA, they just go for all three, because it doesn't matter nearly as much, you can have your really bassy cake, and eat it really really loudly.

[quote name='ironside1966' post='975401' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:44 PM']I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is this.
A note is made up of the fundamental then a succession of harmonics so when people say the can hear a low note or sound from a very small speakers they are hearing the harmonics not the fundamental[/quote]

Doesn't matter to subs, they are just making the lows, the higher harmonics are dealt with by the other parts of the PA.

[SteveK]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='975104' date='Oct 2 2010, 04:28 PM']According to Jon Burton, The Prodigy's chief live sound engineer:



The full article is in the October edition of Sound On Sound magazine and gives more details about his liberal use of 18-inch subs and, in case that's not quite enough, his use of triple 21-inch 'infra' subwoofers to handle the 15-50Hz frequencies.

Might as well ditch my 2x10 cab then. [/quote]
The man is absolutely right.
Remember he is talking about PAs not bass guitar rigs.
If you want punters to not only hear but [i][b]feel[/b][/i] the bottom end at larger gigs, then you will need large units - suitably housed of course.

[rmshaw37]

i know i'm gonna get shot down for this - but i've used the ampeg 810, 410he, 410hlf and 115e in the practice room - the only one gthat made the whold band go "f***in hell!" was the 115.

theory is one thing, hearing is another, and to my ears theres a big difference between a big driver and a small one thats well ported!

i've always thought its the bass that gets people moving, not the drums (that just gives them something to dance to thats easy to pick up) hence why clubs and dance music get more people jigging than rock or whatever.

like i say, i know i'm gonna get shot down for this, but i can hear (and feel) a big difference.......

the same is also true for precision versus jazz

*runs for cover*

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Marvin' post='975364' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:00 PM']This guy comes across as a complete idiot.[/quote]

I think you've missed the point, rather spectacularly. You can definitely FEEL 27 Hz and below when the power's high enough! And I don't think he'd have infra subs and then just leave a big gap between 40 and 150 Hz either. I'm sure if you play a conventional bass line through their system it'll sound punchy and dynamic. It'll just shake your booty like a fat nun on a washing machine at the same time if the lower signal's there as well.

I know BFM and Alex are at pains to point out that loudspeaker size per se doesn't govern tone, but when it comes to reproducing deep bass bigger is always better, it's physics. Small 8" home subwoofers can produce very low bass indeed but they do it a lot less efficiently than mahoosive great big drivers (in suitable boxes).

By the way church organs often have 32ft pipes (16 Hz), and some have 64' 'stopped' pipes! You can't exactly hear them, they just add general massiveness to the sound.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='rmshaw37' post='975896' date='Oct 3 2010, 12:31 PM']i know i'm gonna get shot down for this - but i've used the ampeg 810, 410he, 410hlf and 115e in the practice room - the only one gthat made the whold band go "f***in hell!" was the 115.

theory is one thing, hearing is another, and to my ears theres a big difference between a big driver and a small one thats well ported!

i've always thought its the bass that gets people moving, not the drums (that just gives them something to dance to thats easy to pick up) hence why clubs and dance music get more people jigging than rock or whatever.

like i say, i know i'm gonna get shot down for this, but i can hear (and feel) a big difference.......

the same is also true for precision versus jazz

*runs for cover*[/quote]

Did you use those for PA at a large venue? Cause if not, that is totally not relevant.

[Delberthot]

[quote name='TimR' post='975319' date='Oct 2 2010, 07:11 PM']As far as I'm aware they don't have a bass player.[/quote]


They tour with a full band - Dave Grohl played on their newest album

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq46OY-FHIc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq46OY-FHIc[/url]

Edited October 3, 2010 by Delberthot

[bumnote]

[quote name='4-string-thing' post='975416' date='Oct 2 2010, 09:05 PM']Nobody would use lots of 18 or 21" drivers for bass guitar, because while it may reproduce a low B, it would probably sound horrible![/quote]

Ooohhhh
Never checked out an acoustic 301?

[TimR]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='976037' date='Oct 3 2010, 02:56 PM']They tour with a full band - Dave Grohl played on their newest album

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq46OY-FHIc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq46OY-FHIc[/url][/quote]

Ahhh my eyes. I couldn't make out anything from that video.

Isn't Dave Grohl a drumer?

According to their website he laid down drum tracks.

[Protium]

[quote name='TimR' post='976247' date='Oct 3 2010, 06:26 PM']Isn't Dave Grohl a drumer?[/quote]

GTFO

[size=1]edit: forgot the joking smily[/size]

Edited October 3, 2010 by Protium

[TimR]

All a port does is tune the cabinet to make it resonate at certain frequency. This makes it more efficient at that frequency in a smaller box.

The idea being that you don't need a massive cabinet to carry around and your 15" or 10" is still able to produce useful frequencies up to 5kHz. Nice harmonics and clear sound from one speaker cab.

That's why we use 15" and 10" for PORTABLE bass cabs.

Once you start talking about 18" and 21" SUB speakers their response is not very flat above 1Kz. So as someone already said they will sound horrible.

Note this is not the same as a full range 18" bass speaker that some use for bass guitar, again usually in a ported cab.

The PA will have crossovers that cut all the frequencies over 50Hz going to the cab.

The Prodigy will probably not be too concerned about tring to get their subs into the back of their family hatchback along with the drum kit and then fitting it in a service lift or carrying it down a fire escape in the rain in the middle of the night.

[TimR]

[quote name='Protium' post='976268' date='Oct 3 2010, 06:41 PM']GTFO[/quote]

What have I missed? Educate me.

According to Wikipedia - Grohl played drums on the tracks 'Run With The Wolves' and 'Stand Up' on The Prodigy's 2009 album Invaders Must Die.

[Protium]

[quote name='TimR' post='976279' date='Oct 3 2010, 06:47 PM']What have I missed? Educate me.

According to Wikipedia - Grohl played drums on the tracks 'Run With The Wolves' and 'Stand Up' on The Prodigy's 2009 album Invaders Must Die.[/quote]

Missed Dave Grohls abilities as a totally awesome multi-instrumentalist

[Mr. Foxen]

There is a bass drum, which will be going through those big subs.

[TimR]

[quote name='Protium' post='976280' date='Oct 3 2010, 06:49 PM']Missed Dave Grohls abilities as a totally awesome multi-instrumentalist [/quote]

Why the GTFO?

The guy's "a totally awesome multi-instrumentalist " and you give me a one line answer?

What other bands has he played in and what instruments? As I say I thought he was a drummer. I'm not one of his followers.

Does he play bass guitar on the Prodigy album? - show me a link. Who plays all these multi instruments that he is playing on the album for the Prodigy when they go on tour?

As I say "educate me."

[TimR]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='976311' date='Oct 3 2010, 07:16 PM']There is a bass drum, which will be going through those big subs.[/quote]

Doesn't most of the "bass" in a bass drum exist in the 80-120Hz area?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='TimR' post='976318' date='Oct 3 2010, 07:18 PM']Doesn't most of the "bass" in a bass drum exist in the 80-120Hz area?[/quote]

Fairly sure the prodigy will trigger some uber sub sample if it isn't there. What hits a standard PA/is on a record from a bass drum is probably that, pretty sure you can get lower from it if you want to.

[Protium]

[quote name='TimR' post='976313' date='Oct 3 2010, 07:17 PM']...
As I say "educate me."[/quote]

It was a joke, chill out. I meant he is a multi-instrumentalist in general, not just playing for the Prodigy.

Playing guitar, bass, piano, drums as well as vocal duties (just so I'm clear, not all at the same time) in groups (again, so I'm perfectly clear, not all the above instruments for each group) such as:
Nirvana
Foo Fighters
Them Crooked Vultures
Probot
Tom Petty
Killing Joke
Tenacious D
Nine Inch Nails
QOTSA

[4-string-thing]

[quote name='bumnote' post='976123' date='Oct 3 2010, 04:44 PM']Ooohhhh
Never checked out an acoustic 301?[/quote]

Er, no... but as an Acoustic fan, I wish I could though!

[TimR]

[quote name='Protium' post='976340' date='Oct 3 2010, 07:46 PM']It was a joke, chill out.[/quote]

Ok, you added the smiley now

Felt like you were slamming me for not knowing about someone I've only heard of as a drummer in a genre I don't really listen to. I knew he played guitar and sang in Foo Fighters of course BUT if you slam me be prepared to do some work

I'm still not sure that Prodigy have a bass player but that's just me being pedantic.

Maybe I'll check out some of those other bands though, cheers.

Edited October 3, 2010 by TimR

[Protium]

[quote name='TimR' post='976359' date='Oct 3 2010, 08:01 PM']I'm still not sure that Prodigy have a bass player but that's just me being pedantic.[/quote]

I was 99% sure they do, so I did a bit of digging:

Linked from here: [url="http://www.theprodigy.com/photos/category/40"]http://www.theprodigy.com/photos/category/40[/url]

I wasn't slamming you earlier, my post didn't come across how I intended, sorry.

[TimR]

Excellent one that's Rob Holliday..

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Holliday"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Holliday[/url]

[url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/robbiegill/3483541810/"]http://www.flickr.com/photos/robbiegill/3483541810/[/url]

Oh and no worries I've updated the Daily Annoyances thread

Edited October 3, 2010 by TimR