Is technique that important?

[risingson]

[quote name='BassBus' post='985627' date='Oct 12 2010, 12:42 PM']Perhaps this makes your point.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLwLPseckQ4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLwLPseckQ4[/url]

Very competent playing but for me it doesn't really fit in with the latic rhythm behind it.[/quote]

Yeh, classic example. It's like in conversation, people sometimes need to exert their perceived level of intelligence upon someone else just by saying too much, and it's just not required.

[quote]depends on your definition of great. I would say the (arguably) second most successful bassist in popular music could be considered great by that fact alone, but he has poor technique by just using his thumb to pick.[/quote]

You mean Sting? Sting isn't a tight player. Sting knows this, every producer and band member he's played with knows this. But listening to some of the multitracks off of off Synchronicity, the guy just hit the nail on the head with what was required.

[Doddy]

[quote name='risingson' post='986071' date='Oct 12 2010, 07:03 PM']You mean Sting? Sting isn't a tight player. Sting knows this, every producer and band member he's played with knows this. But listening to some of the multitracks off of off Synchronicity, the guy just hit the nail on the head with what was required.[/quote]

If it is Sting,he doesn't just use his thumb. He often uses his thumb and two fingers-using the thumb for the lower strings an the fingers
on the higher strings,especially if he's playing octaves or something. He also uses a standard two finger technique on some of his busier
lines.

[SteveK]

I would very much doubt that MacDaddy is referring to Sting...

...at least, I hope he isn't

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='SteveK' post='986116' date='Oct 12 2010, 07:38 PM']I would very much doubt that MacDaddy is referring to Sting...

...at least, I hope he isn't [/quote]

no he isn't

successful though Sting undoubtedly is I don't think he could be considered the (arguably) second most successful bassist in popular music.

I was referring to Bill Wyman.

[Doddy]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='986235' date='Oct 12 2010, 08:59 PM']no he isn't

successful though Sting undoubtedly is I don't think he could be considered the (arguably) second most successful bassist in popular music.

I was referring to Bill Wyman.[/quote]

Riiiight.

To be fair,you do only need very basic technique to play the vast majority of the Wyman-era Stones stuff.
Then again Wymans success had nothing to do with his bass playing,and everything to do with being in the Stones.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='986023' date='Oct 12 2010, 06:20 PM']I don't know who you are referring to, but I don't see that 'just using the thumb' is necessarily poor technique.[/quote]

let's open this to debate.

Has anyone here who teaches bass, ever encouraged a pupil who has full use and control over their picking hand digits, to use just their thumb to pick with?

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='986254' date='Oct 12 2010, 09:15 PM']Riiiight.[/quote]

i did make the point of saying arguably.

He probably is though.

[XB26354]

Is [i]efficient[/i] technique that important?
Yes.

[jakenewmanbass]

My feeling is, why wouldn't you want to do something as well as you are able? So whether it's 'that important' is for the individual to decide, furthermore they will achieve accordingly...
Citing examples of some of the instrument's greatest achievers to justify the lack of need for any particular discipline is, in my view, not helpful to the endeavours of the mortal.

Edited October 13, 2010 by jakesbass

[greyparrot]

[size=4][color="#FF0000"]yes[/color][/size] end of. You use bad tech, it will sound loose, and worse still you will or can end up with damage to your wrists hands back you name it it can happen.

[Bilbo]

I think that Jake has made a good point. The motivation to play and the professional requirements of contemporary players have changed dramatically over the last 40 years, on all instruments but the bass particularly. The Stones were never great technicians and, like many of the bands of that era, got away with murder musically because there were so few bands around. I mean, have you actually LISTENED to George Harrison's guitar playing? Whilst there are always weak musicians around, the average bedroom bass player nowadays could technically knock Wyman into a cocked hat. If you want to be good enough to play in a good band, you would probably, but not inevitably, have to develop skills at a higher level than Wyman - even the punk era bassists (who were all 'anti-muso') were more advanced. Even McCartney and Sting are not great technicians but use their basses to play their own songs (how many BASS ONLY sessions have these two done for other acts? I don't know of any at all but, if it is, it is a tiny number compared to, say, Pino, Flea, Miller etc etc). If you want to win a place in a band on the basis of your bass playing prowess, doing a Wyman probably won't get you the gig. It certainly won't get you much in the way of session work. And so, if a teacher can't take you beyond that level, they are probably not worth the investment!!

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='986728' date='Oct 13 2010, 11:00 AM']My feeling is, why wouldn't you want to do something as well as you are able? So whether it's 'that important' is for the individual to decide, furthermore they will achieve accordingly...
Citing examples of some of the instruments greatest achievers to justify the lack of need for any particular discipline is, in my view, not helpful to the endeavours of the mortal.[/quote]

Pick with just your thumb and you too could become (arguably) the second most successful bassist in popular music too?

That's not really what I'm saying Jake

Just adding to the debate is all. The question is 'Is technique that important?'. Well for what?
Playing the bass - no. Playing the bass with an increased technical ability - yes. To acheive success as a bass player - not necessarily. To avoid possible injury and negative long term health effects - definitely.

[greyparrot]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='986760' date='Oct 13 2010, 11:27 AM']I think that Jake has made a good point. The motivation to play and the professional requirements of contemporary players have changed dramatically over the last 40 years, on all instruments but the bass particularly. The Stones were never great technicians and, like many of the bands of that era, got away with murder musically because there were so few bands around. I mean, have you actually LISTENED to George Harrison's guitar playing? Whilst there are always weak musicians around, the average bedroom bass player nowadays could technically knock Wyman into a cocked hat. If you want to be good enough to play in a good band, you would probably, but not inevitably, have to develop skills at a higher level than Wyman - even the punk era bassists (who were all 'anti-muso') were more advanced. Even McCartney and Sting are not great technicians but use their basses to play their own songs (how many BASS ONLY sessions have these two done for other acts? I don't know of any at all but, if it is, it is a tiny number compared to, say, Pino, Flea, Miller etc etc). If you want to win a place in a band on the basis of your bass playing prowess, doing a Wyman probably won't get you the gig. It certainly won't get you much in the way of session work. And so, if a teacher can't take you beyond that level, they are probably not worth the investment!![/quote]

#
I agree with most of this, but think Macca and sting are great players, who added and brought the bass to the front of music. Alot of beatles numbers had great bass lines, and his stuff with wings is great. Both sting and macca have great tech and a good feel for music and melody useing little notes. One of maccas great bass lines to me are in the song 'dont say goodnight tonight' nice bass line. :-)

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='986762' date='Oct 13 2010, 11:27 AM']Pick with just your thumb and you too could become (arguably) the second most successful bassist in popular music too?

That's not really what I'm saying Jake

Just adding to the debate is all. The question is 'Is technique that important?'. Well for what?
Playing the bass - no. Playing the bass with an increased technical ability - yes. To acheive success as a bass player - not necessarily. To avoid possible injury and negative long term health effects - definitely.[/quote]
Point taken but I think you missed the key sentence in my thought which was "is for the individual to decide" Which I think brings our sentiments much closer.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='986760' date='Oct 13 2010, 11:27 AM']....The Stones were never great technicians and, like many of the bands of that era, got away with murder musically because there were so few bands around. If you want to win a place in a band on the basis of your bass playing prowess, doing a Wyman probably won't get you the gig. It certainly won't get you much in the way of session work....[/quote]
I think every player needs as much technique as they are capable of absorbing, but "so few bands"? There were thousands of bands in the 60's. Way more than there are now and it was more difficult to succeed back then. Bill Wyman's style worked in the Stones. Darryl Jones is still playing Bill Wyman bass lines and he has a ton of technique. Says it all!

You won't get session work without a good technique but any bass player joining U2 would have to play Adam Clayton bass lines, so you can easily get a gig in a band with no technique. It just depends what the band wants/needs.

Don't put simple bass players down. They contribute as much to music as any "clever" bass player.

[Doddy]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='986762' date='Oct 13 2010, 11:27 AM']To acheive success as a bass player - not necessarily.[/quote]

It depends on how define as 'success as a bass player'. If you want a long term career as a player,you have to have your technique together. There are hundreds of players around who have had 'success' with their bands,who now don't play because they didn't have the ability to branch out and sustain a career after their band went tits up.
Unless you are in the rare minority,if you want success as a bass player,or any musician, need to have your technique together.

[Doddy]

[quote name='chris_b' post='986804' date='Oct 13 2010, 12:04 PM']Darryl Jones is still playing Bill Wyman bass lines and he has a ton of technique. Says it all![/quote]

But,Darryl Jones would never have got the call if he hadn't been one of the top session musicians in the world. So,although he is playing relatively simple lines,his abilities are what ultimately lead him to the gig.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='986826' date='Oct 13 2010, 12:22 PM']It depends on how define as 'success as a bass player'. If you want a long term career as a player,you have to have your technique together. There are hundreds of players around who have had 'success' with their bands,who now don't play because they didn't have the ability to branch out and sustain a career after their band went tits up.
Unless you are in the rare minority,if you want success as a bass player,or any musician, need to have your technique together.[/quote]

so you agree - not necessarily

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='986789' date='Oct 13 2010, 11:51 AM']Point taken but I think you missed the key sentence in my thought which was "is for the individual to decide" Which I think brings our sentiments much closer.[/quote]
point taken and agreed.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Doddy' post='986831' date='Oct 13 2010, 12:27 PM']....But,Darryl Jones would never have got the call if he hadn't been one of the top session musicians in the world. So,although he is playing relatively simple lines,his abilities are what ultimately lead him to the gig....[/quote]
Indeed. Isn't that what I said?

[Doddy]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='986875' date='Oct 13 2010, 12:58 PM']so you agree - not necessarily [/quote]

I agree in as much as that players like Wyman and Clayton are successful by virtue of their respective bands-their
success is predominantly as 'band members' and not 'bass players'. So if you want to go about it that way,you don't
need good technique,but in the highly likely chance that that doesn't work,or last, you will need good technique to
further your career.

[greyparrot]

[quote name='Doddy' post='986910' date='Oct 13 2010, 01:19 PM']I agree in as much as that players like Wyman and Clayton are successful by virtue of their respective bands-their
success is predominantly as 'band members' and not 'bass players'. So if you want to go about it that way,you don't
need good technique,but in the highly likely chance that that doesn't work,or last, you will need good technique to
further your career.[/quote]


Also if they want to continue in the music industry i do think many bassist in bands that make it do get their act together to stay in the music industry. Nowdays i think the standard of bassists is very high in most of todays chart bands. Even if its simple stuff it sounds well played, but lets face it they can proberbly produce a hit single with my parrot singing nowdays with the equipment available to preoduce tracks with. :-) If you listen to some of the bass lines like in buddy hollys everyday there a huge bum note at the end of the song.....did anyone care.....no. I did a gig with the Crickets a while back, along side them, the bass player now is amazing. Im guessing at the time of Buddys hits he was playing 2/3 years.

Edited October 13, 2010 by greyparrot

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='986701' date='Oct 13 2010, 10:41 AM']let's open this to debate.

Has anyone here who teaches bass, ever encouraged a pupil who has full use and control over their picking hand digits, to use just their thumb to pick with?[/quote]
I'd be surprised to find someone teaching thumb-only technique but that's irrelevant to what I said.

Monk Montgomery is a good example of an electric bass guitarist who effectively used a thumb-only technique. It's not standard technique but it's also not necessarily poor technique.

[BassBus]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='986728' date='Oct 13 2010, 11:00 AM']My feeling is, why wouldn't you want to do something as well as you are able?[/quote]
I might be splitting hairs here but "...as well as you are able" or 'as well as you want to'

[quote name='greyparrot' post='986730' date='Oct 13 2010, 11:01 AM'][size=4][color="#FF0000"]yes[/color][/size] end of. You use bad tech, it will sound loose, and worse still you will or can end up with damage to your wrists hands back you name it it can happen.[/quote]
There seems to be two distinct types of technique being talked about now. Having suffered muscular problems in my back I would agree that paying attention to posture and hand/wrist action is esential. However, the technique I originally intended this thread to be about is that of the amount of ability one has at playing the instrument.

A number of examples of those without great flourish to their playing have been given. These players do fit so well with the music they play in though.

[greyparrot]

[quote name='BassBus' post='986958' date='Oct 13 2010, 02:06 PM']I might be splitting hairs here but "...as well as you are able" or 'as well as you want to'


There seems to be two distinct types of technique being talked about now. Having suffered muscular problems in my back I would agree that paying attention to posture and hand/wrist action is esential. However, the technique I originally intended this thread to be about is that of the amount of ability one has at playing the instrument.

A number of examples of those without great flourish to their playing have been given. These players do fit so well with the music they play in though.[/quote]


If you have good tech then you will play better than bad tech. I use my whole right hand to pick, damp and play the notes, and always keep my left hand relaxed and the one finger freat thing. Its just how i have learnt and touch wood, 30 years on i have no back/wrist,elbow probs, and i would say i get around the freatboard fairly well. I just dont think you can play smooth with bad tech. if you drive a car badly, one day you will crash.