The Barefaced equivalent of a 4x10 + 1x15 config

[pmaraziti]

I know that it would depend on brand/models and I know that many in the forum will say that 4x10 + 1x15 is not a reccomendable setup, but if you had to offer a barefaced replacement setup to somebody fond of the 4x10+1x15 combination... .what would you suggest?

[charic]

My guess would be midget t / compact from what I read.

Completely guessing tho...

[alexclaber]

[quote name='pmaraziti' post='983882' date='Oct 10 2010, 10:35 PM']...if you had to offer a barefaced replacement setup to somebody fond of the 4x10+1x15 combination... .what would you suggest?[/quote]

I would ask specifically why that person is fond of the 4x10"+1x15" set-up - so what about the sound, size, modularity, dispersion, height, they like and what they would change about it if they could. And then I would want to know more about what tone they are after, how loud their gigs are and what amp they're intending to use. The end result could be one of a number of different Barefaced cabs or rigs becoming recommended, or possibly none of them!

It's a bit like going back to the arrival of the Austin Seven asking what someone fond of the motorcycle and sidecar set-up would like in a small car - is it the convenience of being able to carry more than on a normal motorbike or is it the low cost vs a big car or is it the speed you can enjoy with a powerful motorbike and sidecar?

The 4x10"+1x15" rig certainly used to have a lot of pros, despite the downsides of the polar response and excursion/thermally-limited power handling issues, but as amps have become more and more powerful the downsides have become more obvious (serious excursion-limited power handling issues) whilst the high mid-bass sensitivity and gradual low frequency roll-off and deep response due to the often lower-tuned large 15" enclosure have become less of a bonus.

[pmaraziti]

Thanks Alex,

indeed it's probably different for different players.

The reason I'd like to go the 4x10+1x15 route is because I "feel" it has all the pitch/definition of the typical 10" (I know you don't like the word "typical" associated to speaker size) that is close to your ears (e.g. when sitting on top of the 1x15) and it still gives me a "feeling" of full bottom end (the 1x15)
I use it for modern synth rock with some slapping. I'd drive it with either a Markbass Tube 800 (800w at 4 Ohm) or an Aguilar DB750 (750 at 4Ohm, it can go down to 2). The reason I don't do it is because first I want something more portable if it exist, second I'm learning a lot about problem with different speaker sizes, so it might not be the right route.

What could be a good combination? Maybe the suggested Compact+Midget T? Would they work well even if different speaker size? Maybe an other combination , maybe a Big One?

tx in advance, Paolo

[alexclaber]

[quote name='pmaraziti' post='984126' date='Oct 11 2010, 10:02 AM']The reason I'd like to go the 4x10+1x15 route is because I "feel" it has all the pitch/definition of the typical 10" (I know you don't like the word "typical" associated to speaker size) that is close to your ears (e.g. when sitting on top of the 1x15) and it still gives me a "feeling" of full bottom end (the 1x15)[/quote]

You see this is all pointless words about sound which are so imprecise in reality (because speaker diameter is one of the least significant variables when it comes to tone) that it tells me almost nothing! You want a defined sound that you can hear with good bottom - which could come from any good full-range speaker cab, regardless of what's in it.

Show me some clips on YouTube or find some samples on Amazon that showcase the sounds you're after. Tell me what bass you're using and what strings are on it. Tell me exactly what cabs you're currently using, what amp is driving them and what you do and don't like about them in terms of tone and performance.

Quit worrying about speakers sizes - find the sound you want, tell me the rest of the gear you're using and I'll tell you if we have something that will fit, or not.

Best regards,

Alex

[alexclaber]

Sorry if that sounded a bit grumpy, I have the most annoying manflu (i.e. a proper cold but definitely not real flu!) at the moment - I'm not very good at being ill, I get irritable!

[Happy Jack]

You mean that there's a time when you're [i][b]not [/b][/i]irritable?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='984244' date='Oct 11 2010, 11:35 AM']You mean that there's a time when you're [i][b]not [/b][/i]irritable?[/quote]

When I'm asleep. Unless you wake me up...

[pmaraziti]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='984236' date='Oct 11 2010, 12:30 PM']Sorry if that sounded a bit grumpy, I have the most annoying manflu (i.e. a proper cold but definitely not real flu!) at the moment - I'm not very good at being ill, I get irritable![/quote]

It's ok Alex, truth is that words are indeed meanigless as far as describing sound at least for me. I don't have one sound in my mind, and more often than not I find me liking several players indipendently of what they use!

So, my inclination towards a 4x10+1x15 solution comes from perceiving that config as an "all terrain" flexible option. I'd like to have a fairly transaparent non coloured sound. At the moment I have a Mark Tube 800 and Aguilar DB750 which are probably not the perfect example of non colouring heads

I know it's not much and I'm happy if you think it's not enough data to make a recco.

Get better soon!

P.

[Mr. Foxen]

The Big One is for transparent, uncoloured sound, but I'm fairly sure you don't actually mean a transparent, uncoloured sound. Easy way to check if your rig is transparent and uncoloured is you hook up a music player into it, and see if it sounds right.

[pmaraziti]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='984499' date='Oct 11 2010, 04:14 PM']The Big One is for transparent, uncoloured sound, but I'm fairly sure you don't actually mean a transparent, uncoloured sound. Easy way to check if your rig is transparent and uncoloured is you hook up a music player into it, and see if it sounds right.[/quote]

My current rig colours signficiantly the sound, that's what I'm trying to change. I don't believe that 4x10+1x10 per se make a different regarding colouring or not, it's more down to the "tuning" of the cabs to my ear. A combination that I've seen and like is a EBS neo 410+115 driven by a clean set EBS head. I also liked the Accougroove (El Whappo?) when I could assist to a concert that featured it (e.g. see Todd Johnson)

[Mr. Foxen]

If you like a clean uncoloured sound, you'll be happy being DIed rather than having your cab miced. I think that is probably the best practical indicator. This will probably happen with the multi driver cabs, because they are a nutpain to mic, when you get the guy who you can see playing a bass solo, but all you can hear if your insides jiggling, that is when someone has miced up the woofer in their multi way cab and not DIed them.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='pmaraziti' post='984473' date='Oct 11 2010, 02:38 PM']It's ok Alex, truth is that words are indeed meanigless as far as describing sound at least for me. I don't have one sound in my mind, and more often than not I find me liking several players indipendently of what they use![/quote]

Yes, words are too woolly when it comes to sound. "Talking about music is liking dancing about architecture" as Zappa or Thelonious Monk or someone like that said. We're up against a bit of a challenge as we're discussing this in your second language - unfortunately my understanding of Spanish is limited to the food I cook, sorry!

I too don't have one sound in my mind, which is why I said clips/samples (plural!) Also I would take absolutely no notice of what players are using to get that sound you like - it is all but irrelevant as there are so many variables. But the joy of me getting to hear bass sounds that you'd like to have on your gigs (and they can be quite diverse tones) is that I hear what you like to hear - there are no words to misunderstand and as long as we're both listening through headphones or decent speakers neither of us should end up after the wrong tone.

For example, here's what I want a bass cab to be able to do:













(And yes, I know they're less than perfect quality but I'm quite good at filtering out the imperfections that the digital encoding has introduced!)

[quote name='pmaraziti' post='984473' date='Oct 11 2010, 02:38 PM']So, my inclination towards a 4x10+1x15 solution comes from perceiving that config as an "all terrain" flexible option. I'd like to have a fairly transaparent non coloured sound. At the moment I have a Mark Tube 800 and Aguilar DB750 which are probably not the perfect example of non colouring heads[/quote]

Both those heads have pretty transparent power amp stages, so if you like the sound of them DI'd through a good PA, good headphones or good (good is important!) studio monitors then you'll like a fairly transparent cab. Mr Foxen is right on the money with that!

[quote name='pmaraziti' post='984518' date='Oct 11 2010, 03:34 PM']My current rig colours signficiantly the sound, that's what I'm trying to change. I don't believe that 4x10+1x10 per se make a different regarding colouring or not, it's more down to the "tuning" of the cabs to my ear. A combination that I've seen and like is a EBS neo 410+115 driven by a clean set EBS head. I also liked the Accougroove (El Whappo?) when I could assist to a concert that featured it (e.g. see Todd Johnson)[/quote]

I don't tend to take much notice of what people are using to get a sound because there are too many variables - and I've heard more great sounds because the player is great and despite the rig being less than wonderful, than the other way around! But the rigs/player you mention implies you're after something pretty clean (like that AJ clip?)

So when it comes to seeing if there is a Barefaced cab to suit it tends to be a case of me having a listen and working out what tones you're after, then matching up the Barefaced cabs with the bass/strings/amp you're using and sussing out if any of those combinations will suit what you need tonally, and then looking at the rig you're currently using and the gigs you're playing, and then ascertaining you have enough power to drive these tonally suitable Barefaced cabs loud enough. Then there's also the size/weight requirement and also the desire for modularity or not.

Part 1 - clips of desired sounds

Part 2 - basses and strings

Part 3 - amps and current cabs

Part 4 - typical gigs and how the current amps/cabs perform at them

Part 5 - practicalities

Hope that makes sense!

Best regards,

Alex

Edited October 11, 2010 by alexclaber

[markstuk]

Alex,

When I get bored of lugging my Warwick Terminator cab around I now know who I'm coming to talk to :-)

Cheers


Mark

[quote name='alexclaber' post='984691' date='Oct 11 2010, 06:27 PM']Yes, words are too woolly when it comes to sound. "Talking about music is liking dancing about architecture" as Zappa or Thelonious Monk or someone like that said. We're up against a bit of a challenge as we're discussing this in your second language - unfortunately my understanding of Spanish is limited to the food I cook, sorry!

I too don't have one sound in my mind, which is why I said clips/samples (plural!) Also I would take absolutely no notice of what players are using to get that sound you like - it is all but irrelevant as there are so many variables. But the joy of me getting to hear bass sounds that you'd like to have on your gigs (and they can be quite diverse tones) is that I hear what you like to hear - there are no words to misunderstand and as long as we're both listening through headphones or decent speakers neither of us should end up after the wrong tone.

For example, here's what I want a bass cab to be able to do:













(And yes, I know they're less than perfect quality but I'm quite good at filtering out the imperfections that the digital encoding has introduced!)



Both those heads have pretty transparent power amp stages, so if you like the sound of them DI'd through a good PA, good headphones or good (good is important!) studio monitors then you'll like a fairly transparent cab. Mr Foxen is right on the money with that!



I don't tend to take much notice of what people are using to get a sound because there are too many variables - and I've heard more great sounds because the player is great and despite the rig being less than wonderful, than the other way around! But the rigs/player you mention implies you're after something pretty clean (like that AJ clip?)

So when it comes to seeing if there is a Barefaced cab to suit it tends to be a case of me having a listen and working out what tones you're after, then matching up the Barefaced cabs with the bass/strings/amp you're using and sussing out if any of those combinations will suit what you need tonally, and then looking at the rig you're currently using and the gigs you're playing, and then ascertaining you have enough power to drive these tonally suitable Barefaced cabs loud enough. Then there's also the size/weight requirement and also the desire for modularity or not.

Part 1 - clips of desired sounds

Part 2 - basses and strings

Part 3 - amps and current cabs

Part 4 - typical gigs and how the current amps/cabs perform at them

Part 5 - practicalities

Hope that makes sense!

Best regards,

Alex[/quote]

[pmaraziti]

Ok Alex,

you're challenging me, meaning that I wouldn't have thought that a single cab could be so flexible to cover all sounds that you got in your clips....
and don't worry about my English, I'm pretty comfortable with it, what I meant is that you get two bassists (even if they went to same school since they were kids) speaking with same words about a sound and meaning often different things

In my case I would say:

Part 1 - clips of desired sounds







yes, sometime I surprise myself to use a lot of effects in one of the bands I'm in...


I don't think that a single cab/setup can do all this.... but I would love to be proven wrong...

Part 2 - basses and strings

In my case easy, Status S2 classic, Status Stainless strings

Part 3 - amps and current cabs

Currently Markbass Tube 800 and Aguilar DB750 but I might want to change one of the two....
As far as cabs go, main cab is a Bergantino HS410, smaller gigs are played wiht a pair of Mesa Boogie that I want to change (I don't like the... lack of clarity is the word?)

Part 4 - typical gigs and how the current amps/cabs perform at them

The typical gig is a mid-small pub gig where I use the Mesa with the Markbass... I tend to always have a mud sound to my ear no matter how I play with mids/lows. The unfortunately less common gig is a mid size (250-400 people) gig with the Aguilar and the Bergantino. Much more satisfied yet I would love to feel more lows (therefore the 1x15 thought) and less pain on my back (e.g. a less heavy setup)

Part 5 - practicalities

I have a normal 4 doors car, no much space apart from the back seat. I wouldn't mind get a powerful yet light amp and a set of cabs to go with it with less weight...

[alexclaber]

Excellent! A Big Baby T plus Baby Sub seems the answer. Use just the Big Baby T for your smaller gigs, add the Baby Sub when you need more output. I think with some focus on how you play, use your onboard controls, and amp gain/EQ, you could probably do without the DB750 but you'll never exactly replicate the feel of that very fat valvey squishy preamp with the Markbass - just depends on how much that matters to you!

Best regards,

Alex

[pmaraziti]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='986610' date='Oct 13 2010, 10:01 AM']Excellent! A Big Baby T plus Baby Sub seems the answer. Use just the Big Baby T for your smaller gigs, add the Baby Sub when you need more output. I think with some focus on how you play, use your onboard controls, and amp gain/EQ, you could probably do without the DB750 but you'll never exactly replicate the feel of that very fat valvey squishy preamp with the Markbass - just depends on how much that matters to you!

Best regards,

Alex[/quote]

wowo.... learning on your web about the Baby+Sub... that looks like killer combination!

[Ghost_Bass]

Alex, could you make a quick comparison between the Big Baby and the Midget T? Wich one would be "better" used on it's own with a common amp/bass setup and in what kind of sound/style/freq. range/(... can't realy explain better) would each be more suitable?

Sorry for the off-topic, i won't extend this much!

[pmaraziti]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' post='988226' date='Oct 14 2010, 06:47 PM']Alex, could you make a quick comparison between the Big Baby and the Midget T? Wich one would be "better" used on it's own with a common amp/bass setup and in what kind of sound/style/freq. range/(... can't realy explain better) would each be more suitable?

Sorry for the off-topic, i won't extend this much![/quote]


You're welcome and actually gives me the chance to ask also for a comparison... how a Big Baby T + Baby Sub compare with a Compact + Midget T ?

[alexclaber]

This covers a fair bit of the differences: [url="http://barefacedbass.com/which-barefaced.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/which-barefaced.htm[/url]

[alexclaber]

I keep meaning to add this document to the website but as I'm failing to find the time I'll put it here for now!

Note 1 - number in brackets is with L-pad bypassed
Note 2 - parallel or series wiring

As you can see the Big Series cabs pay a sensitivity penalty in exchange for deeper lows, so you need more power to drive them. However if you have the power then they sound louder on the gig than simple (on-axis) specs would suggest due to their more consistent off-axis response putting more power into the room. Unfortunately if you're short of power they're not very tolerant of it and show up every nasty sound that an amp can make when clipping. More like an F1 car than a (modern) 911 - amazing performance but hard to drive! The Engineered Modular Series of cabs are more like normal bass cabs, just very thoroughly engineered ones high-performance ones.