composing songs

[thunderbird13]

I’ve never been much of a composer but I ‘ve started writing stuff for a band. I was wondering how do you lot write music – does it just happen or do you have to work at it. And if you have to work at it what techniques do you use. I’m finding that I can write fragments of melody quite easily but then when it comes to extending them into more of a complete song I run out of ideas.

[3V17C]

yeah i'm much the same - i've got tons of ideas for small sections of songs etc but creating a whole song is a different thing - for me it just takes time until i get some sections that work together then i'll join it all up into a whole song.


peace

c

[Low End Bee]

It's always easier for me with words and a structure first. Then I shoehorn selections from my stock of melodies/riffs/ fragments to fit.
Sometimes it will happen the other way around though and I'll have a verse and or chorus and then write words for them.
Then I give it to the band and the guitarist will say "how about a G instead of an A here" or something and the drummer will change the beat I had in mind. The song then takes a life of it's own on and they ruin* my masterpiece.

*make it listenable.

[Lozz196]

Same again, riffs/passages have always come quite easily, but from there on, its hard work.

What I`ve always tried to do though, is once i`ve got the riff that is the keystone to the whole song, is imagine how the rest of the song goes. Don`t try and play/write anything, let "the music in your head" dictate where it goes. Then try to play what you`ve thought of.

[Earbrass]

A good knowledge of harmony is a great help when it comes to stitching bits of melody and riffs together to make a whole song; understanding the implied harmonies in a melody-line may suggest where it should go next, and understanding what chord patterns go well with others helps when trying to sort the whole thing into a manageable shape, adding a middle 8 or other linking passages etc. In my experience / opinion obviously.

[ahpook]

it's down to practice for me - try and write something every day...and don't be scared of silly/nonsense lyrics until you get the right words.

after all, 'yesterday' started as 'scrambled eggs' didn't it ?

Edited October 12, 2010 by ahpook

[WHUFC BASS]

The best way I've found is to get a catchy chorus or harmony in your head. Build on a catchy chorus and you can't go wrong. Generally I've found the simpler the chord structure the better in trying to achieve this.

Also, if you sing about something that means something to you, the lyrics will be a lot easier to write. I see some bands who write the biggest load of drivel for their songs (Oasis being a great example as well as a lot of metal bands).

Take into consideration the singers range - for example a song might sound great played in the key of E but if your singer's range can't match it, then it'll sound bad. As mentioned, a good knowledge of harmony is a great tool. Not just for vocals but for guitar too.

Bottom line is - if you don't really like the song from the off, the chances are not many other people will like it either.

[Bilbo]

This is a massive subject that rarely gets talked about here. My own take on it (and I speak as someone who has written things (not songs) but for whom the process does not come easily) is that, like playing the bass, you get better at it if you practice.

Some of the options I have explored have included:

Using the skeleton of an existing song as a framework (e.g. writing a new melody over the chords of a jazz 'standard');

Writing a melody and then adding chords;

Developing a chord sequence and then adding a melody;

Trying to reproduce an existing piece of film music by writing a similar piece of music, mirroring techniques that have been used by the original composer (try one of these interlude pieces that are about a minute long);

Using Band in a Box to reframe some things I have already written (play a rock song as a bossa or a jazz standard as a string quartet etc);

Writing a melody using the shape of a skyline to determine the direction of travel of that melody (a Gil Goldstein exercise);

Writing a string quartet from scratch (its now 1.40 long);

Recording improvisations to see if anytnig presents itself as a potential hook.

The options are limitless but, as I said, don't expect the first song you write to be 'Imagine' (unless you are Steve Swallow who wrote Falling Grace first)

[Low End Bee]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='985886' date='Oct 12 2010, 04:28 PM']Writing a melody using the shape of a skyline to determine the direction of travel of that melody (a Gil Goldstein exercise);[/quote]

Yeah. I was going to say that....

Play around with A, D and E for a bit. Always a winner.

[Truckstop]

I always sleep on it. I'll create a nice riff or melody or passage, make sure I remember it, then leave it for a day or two thinking about how you'd like the song to progress and then, when you go back to writing the rest of the song, it should flow a bit easier.
It's called 'visualisation'. I use it a lot for learning how to play tricky or fast passages. I'll learn the notes, then i'll sit down and imagine myself playing the piece perfectly. And save for a few mistakes, I'll feel alot more confident with it when I come to play it the next day for real.
Just imagine yourself playing this song you're writing, and it'll come.

But don't let your mind wander!

Truckstop

[Bassassin]

There's no one method that works for me - although usually it will start with a guitar part and build from there. Usually an interesting & memorable riff or chord sequence will suggest other directions it can go off in, I don't force the process and just play around with ideas, and an arrangement will tend to come together organically.

I write with a singer and sometimes she'll give me completed lyrics & melody and some ideas of style, tempo & feel. To be honest that's easier for me, or at least, more immediate - composing an arrangement around a lyric/melody is simply fleshing out something that already exists. The downside is that it's easier to end up with a more generic end result - which considering my band's somewhat proggy inclination, isn't necessarily desirable.

Jon.

[xgsjx]

Like is said, practice makes it easier.

My method varies. Most of the time I start with my bass in hand as I'll often play something similar to the vocals or it'll be riff based. I set a simple structure (such as intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus) & work on it from there, adding bits as the song starts to take shape. A good example is this: I started off with a melodic bass line, & let my singer hear it. He said "I've got some lyrics that I haven't managed to write a song for as I can't get them to fit, let's try them". He sings, they fit. I then amended things to accommodate a chorus & then it started to grow legs. It got a key change for an instrumental break & that completed it nicely to be Intro, Verse, Short Break, Verse, Chorus, Instrumental Break, Verse, Chorus x2, Outro. took about 6 months to write from start to finish (most songs are much quicker) & we called it Little Disappointments (you can hear the original bit of bassline on one of my reviews in effects reviews if you're interested).

Another song I started with trying to get a sine like sound out of my bass & came up with a 3 chord verse (C, E & A), then made a wee melody on the guitar which ended up being the vocal line & replaced the bass with guitar & it's now played with just 2 guitars & a flute. It's called Johnny & Sid & started of as a rock song about punk but we now cover it as a folk song.

Other methods I use are either starting with guitar for a chord structure or riff or using music software & working on the mac.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='985986' date='Oct 12 2010, 05:52 PM']I write with a singer and sometimes she'll give me completed lyrics & melody and some ideas of style, tempo & feel. To be honest that's easier for me,[/quote]

For similar reasons, I used to find it much easier to compose for theatre and film than I do now to write a piece from scratch. With a film or theatre cue, you're always aware that the music has to perform a specific job, and you've already got a length, and a mood, or other instructions from the director, to start from. That and the fact that there was ALWAYS a tight deadline made it much easier to come up with something than it is now when I just have a blank sheet of paper, so to speak, and all the time in the world.

I think it was the great songwriter Sammy Cahn who, when asked which came first, the words or the music, replied "The phone call, always the phone call".

Edited October 13, 2010 by Earbrass

[thisnameistaken]

I usually start with a melody in my head and try to fill that idea out as much as I can (extending it, adding harmony/counterpoint, imagining a bass part sometimes) before I pick up instruments and think about chords and structure and so on. Also I find it helps to have words as early in the process as possible, because they can make a massive change if they turn up late and maybe even scupper the whole thing.

[lanark]

Whenever I've written tunes, I've always had the smartsarse reply that I need to prefigure the middle section earlier in the piece because it seems to come from nowhere, or to bring both sections together at the end. That's what I've always found most difficult.

They're probably right, but my initial reaction is always to think: "do you know how f***in hard it was just to write what's there? It sounds fine to me!"

Edited October 13, 2010 by lanark