Leeds College of music

[risingson]

Also at the risk of slightly hijacking the thread, I did up the '59 reissue P-Bass up you sold me a few months ago Mark and now it's looking like this!

[attachment=61474:photo.jpg]

Needed a bit of work on it but it's playing excellently now, few minor changes/new PG/flatwounds and it's sounding excellent

[sambassman]

LCM dont accept anyone under a grade 8 standard. now in my opinion thats quite a high standard of playing.
it is also a conservitoir which are EXTREAMLY hard to get into. it isnt one of the most repatable music institutes in the country for nothing. . .

[risingson]

[quote name='sambassman' post='989667' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:22 PM']LCM dont accept anyone under a grade 8 standard.[/quote]

No offense I hope but that means literally jack about someone as a musician, literally nothing at all.

[sambassman]

[quote name='risingson' post='989672' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:27 PM']No offense I hope but that means literally jack about someone as a musician, literally nothing at all.[/quote]


you dont find many naff grade 8ers

[JTUK]

I haven't read all this through but hopefully I have got the jist.
Around here the two pools of new fresh meat/talent used to be Christchurch, Canterbury and the Marine band school at Deal...now closed.

I used the meet them on jazz gigs and mostly they cut it there. I would say that the production line was good but they didn't get called back if they weren't upto it by local band leaders..that was the final arbiter, really.

[risingson]

[quote name='sambassman' post='989675' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:29 PM']you dont find many naff grade 8ers[/quote]


That isn't true either, I have known some people that tout their grades as a way of showing how good they are as musicians, despite being absolutely diabolical.

Sorry I don't mean to completely oust your point and I understand what you're getting at, but all a Grade-8 ABRSM goes to show is that you can follow rules very well, the theoretical side of graded exams has no bearing on popular music as it stands whatsoever. There is a misconception that pop music should be standardised and treated like classical music, but at the end of the day you're either a good musician or you're not, no amount of grades are going to change that or make you more qualified.

[ironside1966]

Sight reading it is a skill to be able to play the part as if you knew it off by heart is a greater skill.
I can read but if you take the dots away and I play something I have previously learnt I am a far better player and I think that’s the case for a lot of people. It is unfair to dismiss players who read as lifeless if you do not have the skill yourself as that may be a completely different player of the page. Also students are at the start of their career and many still have a lot to learn.

[skej21]

[quote name='sambassman' post='989667' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:22 PM']LCM dont accept anyone under a grade 8 standard. now in my opinion thats quite a high standard of playing.
it is also a conservitoir which are EXTREAMLY hard to get into. it isnt one of the most repatable music institutes in the country for nothing. . .[/quote]

From what I remember this is incorrect. A lot of people from my college studied at LCM and the entry requirements were simply based on passing a basic audition (which one of my friends did quite badly with, messed up the sightreading and failed the grade 5 standard theory test but still "passed" the audition) and then once the audition was passed, prospective students simply had to get 3 Cs at A-Level (or BTEC - Merit, Merit, Merit) to be allowed onto the course.

Pretty easy requirements to meet in my opinion.

[yorks5stringer]

Thank goodness the drummer was deemed OK, as our drummer is ex LCM......!

[essexbasscat]

Peanuts and beer time

[TimR]

[quote name='risingson' post='989682' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:33 PM']....
the theoretical side of graded exams has no bearing on popular music as it stands whatsoever.
....[/quote]

What do you base this observation on? What theory grade have you studied to?

[risingson]

[quote name='TimR' post='989696' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:49 PM']What do you base this observation on? What theory grade have you studied to?[/quote]

I base it on long term experience playing with people that claim to be proficient under the guise of graded examinations. I studied to Grade 5 theory as I had to to go on and study music in Liverpool, but I only took the exam because I had to really. It's seen as an essential thing to have, but this I also believe was more to do with filtering out those with and without basic theoretical knowledge from my particular course (the wrong way to do it IMO).

[skej21]

[quote name='risingson' post='989701' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:57 PM']I base it on long term experience playing with people that claim to be proficient under the guise of graded examinations. I studied to Grade 5 theory as I had to to go on and study music in Liverpool, but I only took the exam because I had to really. It's seen as an essential thing to have, but this I also believe was more to do with filtering out those with and without basic theoretical knowledge from my particular course (the wrong way to do it IMO).[/quote]

To be fair, theory is like every other aspect of music. Some people put in the effort, practice and time and it underpins their practical knowledge and some people think of it as a hoop to jump through.

Personally, I think theory is hugely important in making sure you have a solid understanding of your function within an ensemble, and more importantly, the musical impact your part has within a piece/composition.

This maybe a personal view and down to my extensive theoretical study (Grade 8 [Distinction] and LLCM)

I think theory is important, because every time I do anything theory based, I think about how it would be if I was playing it, whereas a lot of people think of music theory solely as an exercise on paper.

Edited October 15, 2010 by skej21

[stingrayPete1977]

I have no grades at all nor can I read music (the same for many musicians if we are still allowed to call ourselves that?) and recently spent an evening with a very fine classical player who came to a blues jam with me a couple of years ago and said he wished he could do that,I thought he was taking the piss at first but he wasnt and he got me to go and show him the basics of the 12 bar and a few simple licks to get him started. I was amazed at what he could play if it was in front of him and literally nothing without! It was like some kind of comedy sketch. You cant teach rock its not possible ,Look at cold play and all that stuff,Middle class mushy rockers cant do a full on Metallica thing,They think they can and I have played with some top notch drummers that read symbols and all sorts of stuff but when it comes to the final rock out at the end,Nothing.....its not on the page.

[risingson]

[quote name='skej21' post='989709' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:08 PM']To be fair, theory is like every other aspect of music. Some people put in the effort, practice and time and it underpins their practical knowledge and some people think of it as a hoop to jump through.

Personally, I think theory is hugely important in making sure you have a solid understanding of your function within an ensemble, and more importantly, the musical impact your part has within a piece/composition.

This maybe a personal view and down to my extensive theoretical study (Grade 8 [Distinction] and LLCM)

I think theory is important, because every time I do anything theory based, I think about how it would be if I was playing it, whereas a lot of people think of music theory solely as an exercise on paper.[/quote]

I completely agree although I never once meant to suggest that theory was unimportant as a player, quite the opposite in fact... more the point that graded exams given classical boards do not outline the practical and theoretical necessities of a popular musician. Only experience can do this, and that's my problem with the graded exams; if you're raised as a classical musician in this country it can be expected that you will have to jump through the necessary hoops to become a formally trained player, but as a guitarist/bassist/drummer etc. it is rare that a person new to such an instrument would approach it with a view to taking formal lessons. Most pop players take up their instrument after being inspired to join a band/watching the Foo Fighters play and thinking 'yeh I'd like to do that' and all the other cliches.

Theory IS important if you want to be an established player, but you will not get good at it by taking an popular music exam laid out by a classical music board.

[skej21]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='989716' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:17 PM']I have no grades at all nor can I read music (the same for many musicians if we are still allowed to call ourselves that?) and recently spent an evening with a very fine classical player who came to a blues jam with me a couple of years ago and said he wished he could do that,I thought he was taking the piss at first but he wasnt and he got me to go and show him the basics of the 12 bar and a few simple licks to get him started. I was amazed at what he could play if it was in front of him and literally nothing without! It was like some kind of comedy sketch. You cant teach rock its not possible ,Look at cold play and all that stuff,Middle class mushy rockers cant do a full on Metallica thing,They think they can and I have played with some top notch drummers that read symbols and all sorts of stuff but when it comes to the final rock out at the end,Nothing.....its not on the page.[/quote]

Totally agree.

That's why I urge my students to master as many areas as possible. There's a preconception that classical musicians can only read, and pop musicians can only busk, but as musicians we should master at LEAST both of these skills.

I hate the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none", or "one trick pony"... Musicians shouldn't happily accept such stereotypes and should aspire (and be encouraged to aspire by their tutors) to master a range of fundamental skills, such as playing by ear/feel, reading, music theory and composition.

Edited October 15, 2010 by skej21

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='989716' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:17 PM']I have no grades at all nor can I read music (the same for many musicians if we are still allowed to call ourselves that?) and recently spent an evening with a very fine classical player who came to a blues jam with me a couple of years ago and said he wished he could do that,I thought he was taking the piss at first but he wasnt and he got me to go and show him the basics of the 12 bar and a few simple licks to get him started. I was amazed at what he could play if it was in front of him and literally nothing without! It was like some kind of comedy sketch. You cant teach rock its not possible ,Look at cold play and all that stuff,Middle class mushy rockers cant do a full on Metallica thing,They think they can and I have played with some top notch drummers that read symbols and all sorts of stuff but when it comes to the final rock out at the end,Nothing.....its not on the page.[/quote]


A guy I knew came across a similar problem, depped for a function band that was all reading. He said they were amazing until a punter asked for some rock & roll. He spent the break trying to teach them C'mon Everybody but they couldn't get it in time for the second set.

[TimR]

[quote name='skej21' post='989721' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:23 PM']Totally agree.

That's why I urge my students to master as many areas as possible. There's a preconception that classical musicians can only read, and pop musicians can only busk, but as musicians we should master at LEAST both of these skills.

I hate the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none", or "one trick pony"... Musicians shouldn't happily accept such stereotypes and should aspire (and be encouraged to aspire by their tutors) to master a range of fundamental skills, such as playing by ear/feel, reading, music theory and composition.[/quote]

I see where you are coming from now. Your earlier post was badly worded.

Basing course entry purely on classical gradings is bad but do you want to be on a course where people are being taught what a quarter note is during their first lesson? Its a filter process to make sure that the musicians reach a prerequisite.

Pop music IS full of theory and if you are going to write it during the course and hand it in to be marked you're going to need to know a fair bit of theory.

It's like doing an engineering degree knowing how to strip down and rebuild an engine but not being able to read the manual or write a report afterwards..

[TimR]

[quote name='TimR' post='989729' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:30 PM']...
It's like doing an engineering degree knowing how to strip down and rebuild an engine but not being able to read the manual or write a report afterwards..[/quote]

There are plenty of engineers who can strip and rebuild engines following the manual, but the best ones are those that have read the manual, understand how the engine works and can build a better one to fit your needs, and write a manual for it.

Edited October 15, 2010 by TimR

[skej21]

[quote name='TimR' post='989729' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:30 PM']do you want to be on a course where people are being taught what a quarter note is during their first lesson?[/quote]

Unless I was studying in America, I'd hope it was called a crochet

Edited October 15, 2010 by skej21

[stingrayPete1977]

Yep (sorry cars again!) but theres an old chap near me that does tuning on all the old classic cars by ear just like a musician and they run sweet as a nut. Experience of knowing what he is listening for just the same as playing in a band IMO.

[risingson]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='989745' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:37 PM']Yep (sorry cars again!) but theres an old chap near me that does tuning on all the old classic cars by ear just like a musician and they run sweet as a nut. Experience of knowing what he is listening for just the same as playing in a band IMO.[/quote]

Yep that's what it's all about.

[risingson]

[quote name='skej21' post='989743' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:36 PM']Unless I was studying in America, I'd hope it was called a quaver [/quote]

I got taught in quaters eights and sixteenths, most jazz players talk like this also on both sides of the pond.

Edited October 15, 2010 by risingson

[skej21]

[quote name='risingson' post='989753' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:39 PM']I got taught in quaters eights and sixteenths, most jazz players talk like this also on both sides of the pond.[/quote]

Yeah sorry, I was trying to inject of bit of humour into this somewhat intense theory discussion... I'll get my coat.

[TimR]

[quote name='risingson' post='989753' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:39 PM']I got taught in quaters eights and sixteenths, most jazz players talk like this also on both sides of the pond.[/quote]

Yes, my kids are learning that way.

A quarter is a crotchet.