Double Bass pickup/mic selection process

[Beedster]

I'm getting to grips with DB amplification and recording. I now have a DB mic (K&K), a PUP to go underfoot (not sure of make), a mid-bridge PUP (K&K Bassmax), and a magnetic fingerboard PUP (Kent Armstrong). I'm thinking that if I fit all of them to my DB at once, and also use a room mic, I can record all five mics/PUPs simultaneously into my DAW, and at least start the process of working out which gets closest to the sound I want for recording and possibly live (given other factors). Any problems with this idea folks?

C

[Bilbo]

I got a great sound recording with a mic (Rode NT1A) just in front/off centre to the bridge.

My big issue, which is such an important part of this, is the getting of the best sound you can with your hands! I find that, when I start playing, I can be a bit inconsistent but, as I carry on, it tightens up, improving the sound greatly, before, a while later, the hand positions collapse with fatigue and the sound quality goes with it. Its all about building up the stamina. Gettign a good sound that is consistent over an evenings performance is my goal.

All my (K&K) pick up is really doing is amplifying the inconsistencies in my playing!!

[thisnameistaken]

Bear in mind that the sound you like best for recording might be impractical to use live - you might struggle to get enough level using a mic without getting lots of feedback.

FWIW a jazzer I know uses just a Realist on one of his basses and it sounds great, he uses just a Full Circle on the other and that also sounds great. Neither give the full acoustic presence and woody sound of his basses, especially on the lower strings, but tbh once you're going through a PA I doubt you're going to be able to preserve a lot of that.

[Beedster]

Thanks for the replies guys, having gigge a few times I'm now aware of the mic/feedback/tone compromise issues. What I should have asked in the first post is whether the five mics/PUPs will have any negative effect either on each other, or on the tone of the instrument itself? That is, by A-B-C-Ding them, am I not getting the sound of each I would get if they were used alone? I can't see why they would but, hey, I've been wrong before

Cheers

C

[BassBod]

No problem in theory..but I hope you've got a bit of time to hand. Its worth taking the time to ensure that all the pickups are fitted and working well before making any decisions. Bilbo's right of course, its the sound you make that's most important.

You've probably learned to accept the natural hierarchy for recording - condenser mic, dynamic mic, pickups. I'd put the magnetic as a postscript! But - its all about what works for you and your music - I can recommend putting the mag through some distortion/compression and mixing a touch in with the purest condenser mic....hehehe.

Have fun!

[Gareth Hughes]

There's pro's and con's with what you're doing. Like a guitarist friend of mine says about instruments/pedals/amps and all their variables: "A man with many sheep has a problem with many sheep"

I've found that, with upright bass especially, there's a lot to be said for getting one good sound (or one good pickup/amp combination) and learning how to use that in a multitude of scenarios, rather than having a multitude of gear and trying to figure out which one is right for each scenario.

Having said that - it can also be a benefit to having several options, especially live. There's been many a night on boomy stages where I wish I still had my old Fishman BP-100 - a pickup that has very little natural lowend IME. But like Bilbo says - get the sound from your hands first and then figure out which pickup/mic/amp does the best job in reproducing that sound in your opinion.

As for your question - you might get phasing issues and you might not. That would be the only problem I'd foresee trying to use two or more at once. One advantage you have with having several options is using the best characteristics from each to make a composite sound - kind of like the huge robot at the end of TRANSFORMERS 2. So you could use the underfoot and the magnetic pickups for the solid low sound, the bridge K&K for the mid definition and the mic to add some air. EQ out all the high's from the underfoot/magnetic pickups, all the lows and highs from the K&K and all the low's from the mic. It might work. And it might sound like dung. Either way - think of your bass now like being like a MusicMan Big Al bass, with it's bridge, middle and neck pickups and all the series/parallel kerfuffle. Options a plenty.

[endorka]

[quote name='Beedster' post='989264' date='Oct 15 2010, 02:48 PM']I'm getting to grips with DB amplification and recording. I now have a DB mic (K&K)[/quote]

Is that the Golden Bullet mic? I've taken mine off the shelf and am experimenting with it now. It sounds good, but as others have stated is more prone to feedback than the pickups.

Jennifer

[Gareth Hughes]

I had a Golden Bullet a few years back, and while I liked the sound of it to record with I could NEVER use it live. I had countless soundmen tell me to turn the mic of within minutes of soundchecking because it was giving them feedback through the main PA before they could get a usable volume from it or my pickup. Ah well.

[endorka]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='990409' date='Oct 16 2010, 05:43 PM']I had a Golden Bullet a few years back, and while I liked the sound of it to record with I could NEVER use it live. I had countless soundmen tell me to turn the mic of within minutes of soundchecking because it was giving them feedback through the main PA before they could get a usable volume from it or my pickup. Ah well.[/quote]

I tried it on a gig tonight and have come to the same conclusions. I was using the wee mixer box so could blend the pickup and mic myself - it was possible to get some of the mic into the mix along with the pickup without feedback, but unfortunately the mic seemed to be picking up quite a bit of the other instruments, so I took it out the mix and used only the pickup.

I'll give the mic a bash next time I record - can you remember how you oriented it on the instrument?

Jennifer

[Beedster]

Yes, Golden Bullet. Makes me laugh, our guitarists needs a load of squealing feedback on one track. He can never get it. I can, live the Golden Bullet makes Hendrix at Monterey sound like sound like Knoppfler at an old people's tea party!

What I'll be doing once I've set them all up is seeing which source works best with my bass and my sound. I completely understand that the "just get on with it and use your fingers" approach has much merit, but there are absolutes. I want to get to grips with those absolutes before dealing with the technique issues. I like a certain tone, a certain ratio of note to percussion, and a certain ratio of tone to air, if that makes sense? There the things I'm going to be looking for in this process. I'm going to record lines to three songs we've recorded on five tracks simultaneously as described above, and I'll be able to see which individually or in combination sit best in the tracks and soloed.

Then no doubt I'll go and buy something else!

C

[Beedster]

First finding. K&K mic sounds OK through the desk but is very hard to hear through the phones in the mix (and on stage). Cheap no-name bridge PUP sounds crap in the mix, but makes monitoring through the phones so much easier, especially in terms of intonation. Yet to determine if fixing the bridge PUP impacts negatively on tone.

C

[Gareth Hughes]

[quote name='endorka' post='990827' date='Oct 17 2010, 01:59 AM']I tried it on a gig tonight and have come to the same conclusions. I was using the wee mixer box so could blend the pickup and mic myself - it was possible to get some of the mic into the mix along with the pickup without feedback, but unfortunately the mic seemed to be picking up quite a bit of the other instruments, so I took it out the mix and used only the pickup.

I'll give the mic a bash next time I record - can you remember how you oriented it on the instrument?

Jennifer[/quote]

Hey Jennifer -

I had the mic head positioned so that it was looking towards the G side F-hole, but not directly over it. It was close to the notch in the F, at about a 45 degree angle pointing in. Any closer or above the F-hole and it sounded like the mic was in a wind tunnel (which I guess it is, so to speak).

Also had some joy (for recording more than live) with the mic pointing straight up towards the tuning pegs, parallel to the front table, but you have to be careful muttering abuse about your band mates - the mic can be more sensitive than you want

[bassadder]

Interesting question, IHE to really use a mic live you need a) a really good mic and a soundman that really understands a limitations of amplifing a double and knows how to get the best out of it. I've used a bunch of different mics and pickups and had various success but in the end it always boils down to the ability of the soundman that made the difference. In terms of gear I now have a DPA4099B it's an excellent but of kit and sounds wonderful I've done several festivals with just the mic in the FOH but and say but, this was a trio gig with no drums, I saw Eric Revis with Branford a while ago using just a mic and he sounded great and he plays with Tain so it can be done, also Carlos Henriquez is a mic only user and recommended the DPA to me. However most of the time I use a Realist in to an Acoustic Image the sound is really good in the mix (with my bass at least) it's also hassle free especially in cramped environments.

Anyway just my two pennith worth.

Cheers

Laurence

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='992644' date='Oct 18 2010, 07:37 PM']Hey Jennifer -

I had the mic head positioned so that it was looking towards the G side F-hole, but not directly over it. It was close to the notch in the F, at about a 45 degree angle pointing in. Any closer or above the F-hole and it sounded like the mic was in a wind tunnel (which I guess it is, so to speak).

Also had some joy (for recording more than live) with the mic pointing straight up towards the tuning pegs, parallel to the front table, but you have to be careful muttering abuse about your band mates - the mic can be more sensitive than you want [/quote]