That piano player's left hand

[jakenewmanbass]

It is a common problem and is as bad as bass players who play all over the instrument all the time
The particular problem for keys players is that they often self accompany whilst playing solo gigs so the need for bass notes is at that time present, what those players need to learn is a strong repertoire of left hand and 2 handed voicings that don't include bass notes. I have got the the point of giving a keyboard player a Mark Levine piano book and pointing out what I mean.
It really is about musicianship and hearing the whole band sound, luckily for me the vast majority of keys players I work with are extremely fluent in the appropriate techniques for slotting into a full band.

Edited October 16, 2010 by jakesbass

[xgsjx]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='989762' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:43 PM']Yes, less can definately be more. When I discussed this with a keyboard player, they asked "What do I do with my left hand then" ?[/quote]
Tell them they could use it twice a song to turn the guitarist back down.


An idea would be to use the transpose function on their piano/keyboard & have them play along with guitars & hihats.

[endorka]

It is fascinating, because once you have managed to get the chordal players away from glaring schoolboy errors such as the clashes caused by two people playing walking basslines - the majority of harmonies that work in the mid & upper registers will not work in the lower register - you can really focus on getting a good arrangement sound.

To my ear, it becomes obvious that having too many root notes in a particular harmony leads to a bland & blooming sound. This is one of the things that Jake's mention of rootless chord voicings solves. When these are applied, the music really opens up and sounds far more impressive.

Rootless chord voicings to seem to be known most amongst jazz pianists, but they work well in any genre. When informed of them, I find that a keyboard player with good ears and an open mind will also find the concept useful.

Jennifer

[ezbass]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='989738' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:33 PM']We've all done the loud guitarist to death, buried him and dug him up once more to have another go at him for being TOO BLOODY LOUD.[/quote]

Check, been there done that.

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='989738' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:33 PM']Then there's the drummers that are too loud, or speed up, or slow down through songs.[/quote]

Check, got one of those right now. I try to drag him back but it's usually an exercise in futility.

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='989738' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:33 PM']Last night threw up what's becoming a more commen occurance recently. It's the piano player's left hand. From the outside looking in, it seems that a lot of piano players spend time practicing the bass line with the left hand, while doing accompaniment with the right hand.[/quote]

And check! Fortunately a gentle reminder in the form of "I will f@*/><g cut that off" whilst pointing at their left hand normally solves the problem.

[markstuk]

I play bass in one band and keyboards in another.. To offer an explanation it's almost instinctive for keyboard players to want to play a bass line with their left hand, indeed it feels odd only to use my right hand. The answer is for the keyboard to play something different - usually lighter, usually more syncopated or at a different interval - from the core bass line.. Just point out to the keyboard player they could be doing something more interesting than just doubling the bass, and that they're likely not to be as tight as the bass player anyway...


[quote name='ezbass' post='989961' date='Oct 16 2010, 09:33 AM']Check, been there done that.



Check, got one of those right now. I try to drag him back but it's usually an exercise in futility.



And check! Fortunately a gentle reminder in the form of "I will f@*/><g cut that off" whilst pointing at their left hand normally solves the problem. [/quote]

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='markstuk' post='990106' date='Oct 16 2010, 12:26 PM']I play bass in one band and keyboards in another.. To offer an explanation it's almost instinctive for keyboard players to want to play a bass line with their left hand, indeed it feels odd only to use my right hand.[/quote]
Instinctive or not it's not good for the overall sound to have closely related bass notes being played simultaneously unless they are in unison or carefully arranged (both are rare)

[quote name='markstuk' post='990106' date='Oct 16 2010, 12:26 PM']The answer is for the keyboard to play something different - usually lighter, usually more syncopated or at a different interval - from the core bass line.. Just point out to the keyboard player they could be doing something more interesting than just doubling the bass, and that they're likely not to be as tight as the bass player anyway...[/quote]

Completely disagree with this analysis, it just makes for muddiness and a total lack of clarity, as I said before any Keys player worth his salt will have an armoury of voicings that don't include the root of a chord so that his input into the band becomes a piece of the jigsaw rather than covering all of it harmonically.
Space is critical in making the difference between music that is messy and music that has clarity and discipline.
I am the MD of [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=101421"]this[/url] band. Mike Gorman (the keys player) is a master at coming up with just the right part to enhance the song.

Incidentally, I am a great lover of really well played unisons between (especially piano) LH and bass parts, done well and in the right proportion to the whole arrangement it is a great sound

Edited October 16, 2010 by jakesbass

[markstuk]

Then we'll agree to disagree.. Unless you have a image of a keyboard player desperate to use all of his/her finger all of the time at the maximum possible speed.. There is no formula of notes per instrument per bar that guarantees musicality. However I suspect that you misunderstood my statement that the keyboard player should think about doing something else interesting. Interesting in this context means musical.


[quote name='jakesbass' post='990132' date='Oct 16 2010, 12:49 PM']Instinctive or not it's not good for the overall sound to have closely related bass notes being played simultaneously unless they are in unison or carefully arranged (both are rare)



Completely disagree with this analysis, it just makes for muddiness and a total lack of clarity, as I said before any Keys player worth his salt will have an armoury of voicings that don't include the root of a chord so that his input into the band becomes a piece of the jigsaw rather than covering all of it harmonically.
Space is critical in making the difference between music that is messy and music that has clarity and discipline.
I am the MD of [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=101421"]this[/url] band. Mike Gorman (the keys player is a master at coming up with just the right part to enhance the song.

Incidentally to all this I am a great lover of really well played unisons between (especially piano) LH and bass parts, done well and in the right proportion to the whole arrangement it is a great sound[/quote]

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='markstuk' post='990138' date='Oct 16 2010, 12:58 PM']Then we'll agree to disagree.. Unless you have a image of a keyboard player desperate to use all of his/her finger all of the time at the maximum possible speed.. There is no formula of notes per instrument per bar that guarantees musicality. However I suspect that you misunderstood my statement that the keyboard player should think about doing something else interesting. Interesting in this context means musical.[/quote]
I think it just depends on the extent to which the music is organised, if the players are improvising and embellishing without arrangement then it really is important for harmonic clashing to be avoided on the hoof. I play with lots of guys who are capable of this (most good jazz pianists are adept at it) what is being pointed out here is that there are keys players that get in the way. I'm talking about how to eradicate this. If the piano player in an orchestra started busking bass notes into his part because it was 'instinctive' he'd be sacked.

Also occurs to me that you don't refer to my notion of left hand and two handed voicings that don't contain roots...? Is this something that you are familiar with? I mean this in the friendliest possible way because if you aren't then there is a world of wonderfulness out there for you

Edited October 16, 2010 by jakesbass

[TimR]

I struggled with a keys player where both of us were over using gliss. Quite often he would play a gliss half a beat behind me. I suggested only one of us play them but I didn't mind who. He said I should play them but then continued to play them. Very frustrating.

The answer? Record the sessions and listen to them back first on your own then with the rest of the band.

First, make sure you are not imagining things and that it is not you who are overplaying. After listening to one song I very quickly came to the conclusion that we were both playing too many gliss. Again less is more. Just because there is a space in the music you don't always have to fill it. Something that's often hard to get through to novice drummers.

Then when I played the recording to the band they all agreed that there was too much going on in a lot of the songs and we [b]ALL[/b] simplified our parts which gave a much more powerful and cleaner sound. (apart from the bonehead drummer - but that's another story completely )

[markstuk]

And what leads you to think I'm suggesting keyboard players should "get in the way" or clash harmonically with the other instruments in the band?

If you're playing from a written arrangement then that's what ALL of you play.. If it's looser then you improvise in a musical way.. Again keyboard players have no monopoly on unmusicality.. But if we play with our left hands we're treading on the bass and play with our right hands we're treading on the guitars :-) bit of a no-win.. Of course we can be the special effects division triggering loops and so on... :-) Look how you lot moan on here when you get told off for going above the 8th fret... It's all the same deal.. You either leave the space (John Cage 4.33 anyone?) play the same thing as someone or play something different. In the end it has to add to the overall picture rather than get in the way... As bass players we don't have a special critical position - but then again no-one else does either...

And in terms of "Also occurs to me that you don't refer to my notion of left hand and two handed voicings that don't contain roots...? Is this something that you are familiar with? I mean this in the friendliest possible way because if you aren't then there is a world of wonderfulness out there for you smile.gif " - Yes I do.. :-) Being formally trained in composition and classical piano/singing you do get to pick up a few things - and I studied with Howard Riley on Jazz Piano as well :-) Good enough?

Mark


[quote name='jakesbass' post='990143' date='Oct 16 2010, 01:02 PM']I think it just depends on the extent to which the music is organised, if the players are improvising and embellishing without arrangement then it really is important for harmonic clashing to be avoided on the hoof. I play with lots of guys who are capable of this (most good jazz pianists are adept at it) what is being pointed out here is that there are keys players that get in the way. I'm talking about how to eradicate this. If the piano player in an orchestra started busking bass notes into his part because it was 'instinctive' he'd be sacked.

Also occurs to me that you don't refer to my notion of left hand and two handed voicings that don't contain roots...? Is this something that you are familiar with? I mean this in the friendliest possible way because if you don't then there is a world of wonderfulness out there for you [/quote]

Edited October 16, 2010 by markstuk

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='markstuk' post='990156' date='Oct 16 2010, 01:15 PM']And what leads you to think I'm suggesting keyboard players should "get in the way" or clash harmonically with the other instruments in the band?

If you're playing from a written arrangement then that's what ALL of you play.. If it's looser then you improvise in a musical way.. Again keyboard players have no monopoly on unmusicality.. But if we play with our left hands we're treading on the bass and play with our right hands we're treading on the guitars :-) bit of a no-win.. Of course we can be the special effects division triggering loops and so on... :-) Look how you lot moan on here when you get told off for going above the 8th fret... It's all the same deal.. You either leave the space (John Cage 4.33 anyone?) play the same thing as someone or play something different. In the end it has to add to the overall picture rather than get in the way... As bass players we don't have a special critical position - but then again no-one else does either...

Mark[/quote]
I meant the thread was suggesting the 'getting in the way' thing, and I have not suggested any of the other things you said, neither do I moan about being asked to play specific parts (after all it is my living) read my posts again and have look at the link i posted. I have a roundly positive attitude towards the vast majority of my colleagues, but have encountered the problem mentioned here. Don't take it so personally Mark.

Edited October 16, 2010 by jakesbass

[markstuk]

I'm not taking it personally, just suggesting that it's important to focus on the bigger picture...

I could start on about how I have to defend playing the bass once people know I play keyboards... Its a bit like guitarists who think playing the bass is easy because... (fill in all the reasons we've all heard here)

Playing in the same register does not automatically make something muscial or unmusical... I think we actually agree on this.. Playing unmusically is the real crime..

Cheers


Mark


[quote name='jakesbass' post='990162' date='Oct 16 2010, 01:21 PM']I meant the thread was suggesting the 'getting in the way' thing, and I have not suggested any of the other things you said, neither do I moan about being asked to play specific parts (after all it is my living) read my posts again and have look at the link i posted. I have a roundly positive attitude towards the vast majority of my colleagues, but have encountered the problem mentioned here. Don't take it so personally Mark.[/quote]

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='markstuk' post='990175' date='Oct 16 2010, 01:29 PM']Playing in the same register does not automatically make something muscial or unmusical... I think we actually agree on this.. Playing unmusically is the real crime..

Cheers


Mark[/quote]
Indeed agreed

[JTUK]

I always prefer piano players instead of keyboard players on gigs but piano players seem to be prone to being more guilty of flooding the space you want.
It should really just take a little bit of time/organisation to get the parts right but this is another thing that defines a player for me.

It mostly comes down to how much time you can set aside in rehearsal and if you don't have the time, then you'll hear it at some point with some players, IME

[markstuk]

I've always thought it important that you should learn the piano first before diving into the world of keyboards.. For me the importance of touch cannot be overstated - even though keyboards without "proper" actions can be faster under some circumstances.. It also gets quite personal in terms of feel - I like the Yamaha GH3/4 actions (I own two Yamaha GH equipped keyboards - the CLP270 actions is better than the Motifs) - other folk like the high end Roland stuff (and others, although more rarely, the Korg, Nord and Kurzweil (Fatah)) actions.. Of course nothing beats a real grand piano - Steinway has the main name recognition, although again (personal) taste I prefer Bechsteins and then Bluthners to Steinways, certainly for actions..

I do get frustrated when people ask me for advice for "keyboards" - and I strongly suggest a good (not someones old knackered upright) overstrung upright or something like a clavinova and then they go and buy a casio or yamaha noise maker from Argos with the worlds nastiest action.. The kid then makes some noises, finds he can't adapt to the teachers piano, then gives up.. Usually...





[quote name='JTUK' post='990230' date='Oct 16 2010, 02:19 PM']I always prefer piano players instead of keyboard players on gigs but piano players seem to be prone to being more guilty of flooding the space you want.
It should really just take a little bit of time/organisation to get the parts right but this is another thing that defines a player for me.

It mostly comes down to how much time you can set aside in rehearsal and if you don't have the time, then you'll hear it at some point with some players, IME[/quote]

[Owen]

For about 1 minute max. Clear lines are then drawn. I am too old to be fighting with other people for my space.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='markstuk' post='990461' date='Oct 16 2010, 06:26 PM']I've always thought it important that you should learn the piano first before diving into the world of keyboards.. For me the importance of touch cannot be overstated - even though keyboards without "proper" actions can be faster under some circumstances.. It also gets quite personal in terms of feel - I like the Yamaha GH3/4 actions (I own two Yamaha GH equipped keyboards - the CLP270 actions is better than the Motifs) - other folk like the high end Roland stuff (and others, although more rarely, the Korg, Nord and Kurzweil (Fatah)) actions.. Of course nothing beats a real grand piano - Steinway has the main name recognition, although again (personal) taste I prefer Bechsteins and then Bluthners to Steinways, certainly for actions..

I do get frustrated when people ask me for advice for "keyboards" - and I strongly suggest a good (not someones old knackered upright) overstrung upright or something like a clavinova and then they go and buy a casio or yamaha noise maker from Argos with the worlds nastiest action.. The kid then makes some noises, finds he can't adapt to the teachers piano, then gives up.. Usually...[/quote]

Although slightly off topic, could you please recommend a good keyboard for stage work around £300 - odd region ? I've thought the Roland P50 was a good option, but I'll always listed to experience in these things

cheers

T

[markstuk]

How many keys? 88? 61? in between? More piano/organ oriented or synthy?

CHeers


Mark


[quote name='essexbasscat' post='990977' date='Oct 17 2010, 11:24 AM']Although slightly off topic, could you please recommend a good keyboard for stage work around £300 - odd region ? I've thought the Roland P50 was a good option, but I'll always listed to experience in these things

cheers

T[/quote]

[markstuk]

Did you mean the Roland EP-50... ? You can do better than that for £300 ...

I prefer 88 note keyboards but be aware they don't fit across the back seat of most cars.... I move my Motif ES8 around in a road ready flightcase, the combination makes moving bass gear around seem easy :-)



Mark

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='990977' date='Oct 17 2010, 11:24 AM']Although slightly off topic, could you please recommend a good keyboard for stage work around £300 - odd region ? I've thought the Roland P50 was a good option, but I'll always listed to experience in these things

cheers

T[/quote]

[essexbasscat]

Doh ! just looked it up and it's the Technics P50 !

[essexbasscat]

By the way, the last page was one of the more interesting reads on the topic of harmonic swamping. The term to describe the issue, at last.

T

[markstuk]

No direct experience of the Technics P50 - it's very piano focused though... Some decent reviews on Harmony Central, some by folks who appear to know what they're talking about.. Appears to need EQ'ing for live work..

Equivalents would be the Yamaha P range (P90/P155), or the Roland RD300... There is a Yamaha CP33 on the bay at the moment for £450 which is slightly expensive, worth a £350-£400 offer direct if no-one bids on it..

Again important to know what sort of music you're playing...

Cheers


Mark



[quote name='essexbasscat' post='990995' date='Oct 17 2010, 11:55 AM']Doh ! just looked it up and it's the Technics P50 ![/quote]

[Bilbo]

I have actually reached the point where I won't work with some people because of these kinds of problems. If a player makes rudimentary mistakes, I will tell them. If they don't 'deal with it', I won't book them again or take a gig that they are on. There are plenty of good players around so I don't need to book those that can't deliver a musical performance. I have done too many bad gigs 'for the money' and my self esteem has been undermined by it so I decided to take affirmative action. Less gigs but better quality music. I win!

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='991079' date='Oct 17 2010, 01:32 PM']I have actually reached the point where I won't work with some people because of these kinds of problems. If a player makes rudimentary mistakes, I will tell them. If they don't 'deal with it', I won't book them again or take a gig that they are on. There are plenty of good players around so I don't need to book those that can't deliver a musical performance. I have done too many bad gigs 'for the money' and my self esteem has been undermined by it so I decided to take affirmative action. Less gigs but better quality music. I win![/quote]


Having butted heads with this issue myself, I can fully understand your stance on not going further down the problem path 'just for the money'. There may well come a time when I do this myself, but for now, I'll keep playing and keep the door open.

T

[JTUK]

Quite happy with most of these guys we come across...and it is normally just the one or two songs where they haven't had the time they need to
work something out. The quick referenece on tape might have a chugging LH..and they really should leave this to the bass to make sense of as the KB is likely to be multi tracked and their attention is required elsewhere. It just bemuses me why they focus on a part that can be easily covered by the bass.
For some reason and just the one or two songs, they seem to switch off...!! Crazy..!!