120 valve watts!

[XPAULUSX]

Hello!

I play in a vey loud band, two guitarists who love to turn up and a drummer who hits harder than David Haye.

I'm looking at getting an all valve head, the Sound City b120 in the FS has interested me.

However, i'm worried that the 120 all valve watts wont be loud enough!

I'm currently playing through a Trace AH300SMX which to be honest never goes up more than half way!

Is there anyone that can help me in my little predicament who may have been in the same situation before?

is 120 all valve watts gonna be enough for my needs?

will be played through an ampeg svt410hlf

[matt_citizenbass]

i had one of those. I found it wasn't loud enough, i never had enough headroom! My sound compressed evertime i turned my distortion and it would squeal like a motherflip everytime i stopped playing.

[Lozz196]

I`ve used one of the Sound City amps, with the matching cab, and also had a Trace AH300 (the one with 7 band graphic) which I used through the Sound City cab. Didn`t notice a particular volume change with either. I think most opinions on here seem that 300 Solid State watts are about the same as 100 valve watts. So you`ll probably warm up your sound, but not get much more volume, plus lose some flexibility. I used the Sansamp Bass DI with mine to warm up, was a great sounding rig.

[XPAULUSX]

[quote name='matt_citizenbass' post='992266' date='Oct 18 2010, 02:48 PM']i had one of those. I found it wasn't loud enough, i never had enough headroom! My sound compressed evertime i turned my distortion and it would squeal like a motherflip everytime i stopped playing.[/quote]

damn!

one to avoid then eh?

Might have to try get myself endorsed by Orange like you then

would love a ad200 me but cant justify spending that much coin yet!

[tayste_2000]

Get another 4x10 and I'd say you can do it, or ditch it for the 2x15 mesa cab for sale and the 1x15 and 1x10 mesa cab

[stevebasshead]

Bear in mind that most old Trace amps don't use a linear volume pot, that is to say that by half way it's pretty much giving out it's max volume and turning it up further doesn't actually give that much more increase in volume. I used to play through a 300SMX (lovely amp) and was quite surprised when I found this out!

How much power you need is hard to judge, it depends on how loud your band is (sounds loud from your description) and whether your amp is an on stage monitor with your bass being projected by the PA or not, and how efficient your cab is (that's quite possibly the biggest factor.) Your Ampeg cab isn't bad in this regard at 98db/w/m, not the most efficient around but still decent. Also will depend on how much clean headroom you need.

[Mr. Foxen]

It won't be loud at all without a cab. enough cab will make anything loud enough. 120w with a 2x15 should sort you, with a 4x10 maybe not. If a Sound City 120 with appropriate sized cab (2x15 ported, or an 8x10, or two of those) isn't loud enough, it probably needs servicing properly. Those Ampeg cabs aren't as great as the name would make you hope.

[umph]

[quote name='XPAULUSX' post='992258' date='Oct 18 2010, 02:41 PM']Hello!

I play in a vey loud band, two guitarists who love to turn up and a drummer who hits harder than David Haye.

I'm looking at getting an all valve head, the Sound City b120 in the FS has interested me.

However, i'm worried that the 120 all valve watts wont be loud enough!

I'm currently playing through a Trace AH300SMX which to be honest never goes up more than half way!

Is there anyone that can help me in my little predicament who may have been in the same situation before?

is 120 all valve watts gonna be enough for my needs?

will be played through an ampeg svt410hlf[/quote]

As i said before these amps totally bring the doom, if you're having problems with headroom you're doing it wrong. As i said to you you have to be careful with the eq as it can lead to phasing problems and sound like the amp isn't very loud.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='992273' date='Oct 18 2010, 02:55 PM']I think most opinions on here seem that 300 Solid State watts are about the same as 100 valve watts.[/quote]
I think most people would know that a watt is a watt regardless of the amp. Especially after Alex Clabers posts on the topic.

[umph]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='992517' date='Oct 18 2010, 05:46 PM']I think most people would know that a watt is a watt regardless of the amp. Especially after Alex Clabers posts on the topic.[/quote]
a watt is a watt, but compression, different harmonics etc all give the illusion of it being louder. Also the difference between 150watts and 300watts isn't that huge

[Lozz196]

Very true, a watt is a watt, however you rarely see 100 watt solid state amps being able to cut it in a live situation in heavy rock/punk bands, but 100 watt valve amps don`t have any trouble at all.

Straying onto guitar amps, our rhythm guitarist used an Orange Tiny Terror for a while, all 15 valve watts, and at gigs it had no problems keeping up. This in venues that held 150, and we are a punk band (tho not a hugely loud one). I`ve never seen a 15 watt solid state that could manage that, even flat out.

Valve amps do seem to be louder pound for pound/watt for watt. Dunno why, I`m not a technical person, but I`d stand in a practice room with a 100 watt solid state amp flat out. Valves - forget it!

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='992632' date='Oct 18 2010, 07:30 PM']Very true, a watt is a watt, however you rarely see 100 watt solid state amps being able to cut it in a live situation in heavy rock/punk bands, but 100 watt valve amps don`t have any trouble at all.

Straying onto guitar amps, our rhythm guitarist used an Orange Tiny Terror for a while, all 15 valve watts, and at gigs it had no problems keeping up. This in venues that held 150, and we are a punk band (tho not a hugely loud one). I`ve never seen a 15 watt solid state that could manage that, even flat out.

Valve amps do seem to be louder pound for pound/watt for watt. Dunno why, I`m not a technical person, but I`d stand in a practice room with a 100 watt solid state amp flat out. Valves - forget it![/quote]

It's the distortion, innit. Sounds a lot less noticeable when you're driving a valve amp to absolute blue b****ry whereas solid state clipping is just nasty and onset is very sudden once you exceed the rail voltage.

[Tdw]

I think watt for watt a valve amp is in practice maybe 25%(ish) louder, due to the usable as opossed to unusually nasty distorsion charachteristics which enable you to use a somewhat overdriven sound where you would have to back off a solid state amp. Having said that i dont think 120 watts would be enough for the band you describe.

[rodl2005]

I had an AMPEG V4BH-LOVELY amp but unless I was running it thru a very efficient cab with a lotta drivers- I wasn't getting the sort of volume U say U R After. If I ran it thru a SVT810 cab- LOUD enough. Thru MY Berg NV610 cab loud enough. But ANYTHING Less-nope!!!!!
Sure a watt IS a watt. But SOME amp makers seem to ssay their amps are higher wattages than they seem to actually be.
I KNOW for a fact that MY MESA Walkabout @ 300w is at LEAST as loud(same cabs etc) as my 500w LMII ?????

& while the 100 TUBE watts of the V4BH was louder than ANY 100w S.S. amp I've used, again- the Walkabout @8ohms - 165w - is a LOT louder. I dunno why... but thems what I found.

[doctorbass]

[quote name='rodl2005' post='993069' date='Oct 19 2010, 06:27 AM']I had an AMPEG V4BH-LOVELY amp but unless I was running it thru a very efficient cab with a lotta drivers- I wasn't getting the sort of volume U say U R After. If I ran it thru a SVT810 cab- LOUD enough. Thru MY Berg NV610 cab loud enough. But ANYTHING Less-nope!!!!![/quote]

Did you ever try the V4BH with an Ampeg 610HLF? Just interested.....

[Phil Starr]

In amongst all these posts you have most of the facts. A watt is a watt but valve amps behave differently when they are overloaded and so you can push the average levels closer to the maximum output. Watts don't measure loudness which is about sound pressure levels and the different perception of different frequencies. Sound pressure depends as much on the speakers as the amp. Doubling the amp power only gives a 3dB increase in power.

If you want a summary of how this all works red this [url="http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html"]http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gea...ng_it_loud.html[/url]

I don't know which Sound City you are looking at but the ones I used to use had 6x EL34 output valves and I measured the output at 300W RMS over a 30sec test period (I kept blowing speakers) so the short term output might be better than the continuous rating.

If your amp isn't loud enough for the audience then go through the PA. If a 120W valve amp isn't loud enough for you to hear then stand nearer your speakers and away from the guitarists/drummer. You are already causing permanent damage to your hearing by the way.

[rodl2005]

[quote name='doctorbass' post='993107' date='Oct 19 2010, 07:04 AM']Did you ever try the V4BH with an Ampeg 610HLF? Just interested.....[/quote]


No I didn't- DID try it with a SVT410HLF, but I didn't like that, too 'woofy'

- but the 610HLF has a sealed upper box & the lower portion is the ported section (If I'm right here???)

so might be 'tighter' as well as goin [b]L O W[/b] for that 410HLF did go LOW as can be...

[XPAULUSX]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='993112' date='Oct 19 2010, 08:10 AM']In amongst all these posts you have most of the facts. A watt is a watt but valve amps behave differently when they are overloaded and so you can push the average levels closer to the maximum output. Watts don't measure loudness which is about sound pressure levels and the different perception of different frequencies. Sound pressure depends as much on the speakers as the amp. Doubling the amp power only gives a 3dB increase in power.

If you want a summary of how this all works red this [url="http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html"]http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gea...ng_it_loud.html[/url]

I don't know which Sound City you are looking at but the ones I used to use had 6x EL34 output valves and I measured the output at 300W RMS over a 30sec test period (I kept blowing speakers) so the short term output might be better than the continuous rating.

If your amp isn't loud enough for the audience then go through the PA. If a 120W valve amp isn't loud enough for you to hear then stand nearer your speakers and away from the guitarists/drummer. You are already causing permanent damage to your hearing by the way.[/quote]


Thanks for that link, i'll give it a read!

and yeah i generally do go through the PA when we play larger venues, i have a sansamp for that!

Yeah i think that sound city does have the 6 el34's but it's only supposed to have an RMS of 120 watts, i dont know what step to take next really.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=49426"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=attach...st&id=49426[/url]

I really REALLY want a valve head, but dont wanna break the bank!

HELP!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='risingson' post='992955' date='Oct 18 2010, 11:36 PM']I completely and categorically disagree with your viewpoint, and also the idea that any level of choice is involved in this process aside from a perceived one.[/quote]

The Sound City will sort you, if you get an appropriate cab. When people say 'distortion', they don't mean pedal type distortion, compression is probably a better word. Valve amp power compression/distortion sounds good, not in a good distortion pedal kind f way, but in a big fat awesome valve amp tone kind of way that is pretty much not comparable in any way to pedals labeled 'distortion'.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='umph' post='992522' date='Oct 18 2010, 05:48 PM']a watt is a watt, but compression, different harmonics etc all give the illusion of it being louder. Also the difference between 150watts and 300watts isn't that huge[/quote]
I think it would be better to talk about perceptions of loudness rather than watts, just to avoid confusion.

[XPAULUSX]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='993335' date='Oct 19 2010, 11:38 AM']The Sound City will sort you, if you get an appropriate cab. When people say 'distortion', they don't mean pedal type distortion, compression is probably a better word. Valve amp power compression/distortion sounds good, not in a good distortion pedal kind f way, but in a big fat awesome valve amp tone kind of way that is pretty much not comparable in any way to pedals labeled 'distortion'.[/quote]


What kind of cab would i need then? I think mine has a sensitivity of 98db. After reading that article someone linked, according to that 200 watts should sort me out. Which is why i guess, you're recommending i get another cabinet!

[tayste_2000]

I'd buy the Matamp 6x10 that thing is hella loud for very little scratch.

Also with 6 el34's that sound city is going to be closer to 150w, it should be very loud and also you're in a band where you are able to crank it to get it pretty gritty sounding without it sounding out of place.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='993335' date='Oct 19 2010, 11:38 AM']The Sound City will sort you, if you get an appropriate cab. When people say 'distortion', they don't mean pedal type distortion, compression is probably a better word. Valve amp power compression/distortion sounds good, not in a good distortion pedal kind f way, but in a big fat awesome valve amp tone kind of way that is pretty much not comparable in any way to pedals labeled 'distortion'.[/quote]

Yep, that's absolutely fair


[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='993348' date='Oct 19 2010, 11:45 AM']I think it would be better to talk about perceptions of loudness rather than watts, just to avoid confusion.[/quote]

It is always difficult to know how techie to be. Using decibels rather than watts is better because it allows for the efficiency of the speaker but this still doesn't allow for the difference in sensitivity to different frequencies. I've tried to deal with these issues in my article a bit.

Each EL34 will dissipate 50W and depending on the exact circuit details and bias settings you will get more than 120W. The limit is the transformers which will warm up and limit the power if you crank up for long periods. Hence the 120W rating, I guess. It is 40 years nearly since I took one of these babies apart however so take everything I say in that light.

I think it will be loud enough and if it isn't you need to look at your speakers. My worry would be about reliability and the availability of spares. How old is this amp and how much will it cost?

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='993413' date='Oct 19 2010, 12:32 PM']Yep, that's absolutely fair




It is always difficult to know how techie to be. Using decibels rather than watts is better because it allows for the efficiency of the speaker but this still doesn't allow for the difference in sensitivity to different frequencies. I've tried to deal with these issues in my article a bit.

Each EL34 will dissipate 50W and depending on the exact circuit details and bias settings you will get more than 120W. The limit is the transformers which will warm up and limit the power if you crank up for long periods. Hence the 120W rating, I guess. It is 40 years nearly since I took one of these babies apart however so take everything I say in that light.

I think it will be loud enough and if it isn't you need to look at your speakers. My worry would be about reliability and the availability of spares. How old is this amp and how much will it cost?[/quote]

It's always going to be an amp you can repair due to the way its made but it depends if you have a good tech in your area and what he charges and how often you want to see him.

[umph]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='993413' date='Oct 19 2010, 12:32 PM']Yep, that's absolutely fair




It is always difficult to know how techie to be. Using decibels rather than watts is better because it allows for the efficiency of the speaker but this still doesn't allow for the difference in sensitivity to different frequencies. I've tried to deal with these issues in my article a bit.

Each EL34 will dissipate 50W and depending on the exact circuit details and bias settings you will get more than 120W. The limit is the transformers which will warm up and limit the power if you crank up for long periods. Hence the 120W rating, I guess. It is 40 years nearly since I took one of these babies apart however so take everything I say in that light.

I think it will be loud enough and if it isn't you need to look at your speakers. My worry would be about reliability and the availability of spares. How old is this amp and how much will it cost?[/quote]

The transformers are heavily overrated they are partridge afterall!

You'll get 50w from a PAIR of el34's not each one unless your running them with 800v on the plate and 300 on the screens which the soundcity isn't.