DB Amplification

[farmer61]

I'm about to kick off an acoustic side project where the DB will get it's first outing in a live situation.

I'm following Chris' [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=106745"]thread[/url] with some trepadation as I'm getting mighty confused.

So please keep simple for a dullard.

I will need a 'simple/as cheap as poss' way of boosting the DB sound. Now when I spent some time with Jake, he mentioned a DI unit, with a pickups that sits under the bridge which makes sense to my simple brain

So my questions bearing in mind going into a Genz Benz Combo, or in to the PA.

1. Recommendations for pickups
2. Recommendations for DI units
3. Will mic into a DI unit work? if so recommendations
4. How to manage feedback situations

Appreaciate the thoughts of both experienced and newbie db players, but need this almost Jack and Jill level.

Many thanks

[Bilbo]

Got a budget in mind, as this will determine your options? The more money you, have the more options.

[farmer61]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='993266' date='Oct 19 2010, 10:44 AM']Got a budget in mind, as this will determine your options? The more money you, have the more options.[/quote]
Well I'm sort of assuming £100 for DI box and the same for a pickup/mic

[fatback]

In rather the same boat myself. Keen to get a simple solution, even if the sound is not absolutely the best.

Lots of folks seem to be saying that mics are not worth the feedback pain.

As for pickups, my thinking was influenced by not wanting to loosen the bridge to stick piezzo transducers under the foot, so i chose the k&k bassmax cos you can slip it into the side of the bridge (still took a bit of sanding though). I wasn't wild about the sound at first cos it had a poppy attack, but i've since concluded it's the strings that have that quality.

I've recently tried a magnetic pickup too, and the sound was as good as the piezzo and promised no feedback, but clearly there were grounding probs, and it buzzed too much for me.

As far as DI goes, I've seen a few people do small gigs with a little preamp straight into the desk, no DI box as such at all. Very simple.

As a noob, i'm still amazed at how every little thing about this instrument is a subject in itself

Edited October 19, 2010 by fatback

[Clarky]

My 2p. Get piezo pickups that sit in the bridge wings (Underwood or Shadow) so can easily be installed or removed if necessary. Then a Fishman Platinum Pro preamp (which you can use to cut out the feedback and shapes the sound). Bingo! Thats what I have, into a MarkBass CMD121P combo. To be fair I haven't gigged it yet (and will not do any time soon due to left hand accident) but BC DB-er supreme, jakesbass, has had a play around on my DB and rig and seemed to think it would do the trick.

[farmer61]

[quote name='Clarky' post='993324' date='Oct 19 2010, 11:28 AM']My 2p. Get piezo pickups that sit in the bridge wings (Underwood or Shadow) so can easily be installed or removed if necessary. Then a Fishman Platinum Pro preamp (which you can use to cut out the feedback and shapes the sound). Bingo! Thats what I have, into a MarkBass CMD121P combo. To be fair I haven't gigged it yet (and will not do any time soon due to left hand accident) but BC DB-er supreme, jakesbass, has had a play around on my DB and rig and seemed to think it would do the trick.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the Fishman preamp was what Jake showed me when I was demonstrating my complete and utter lack of skill on the thing!!

Which pickups you using and how much did you pay for all this little lot (not amp).

Cheers

[Clarky]

[quote name='farmer61' post='993339' date='Oct 19 2010, 11:39 AM']I'm pretty sure the Fishman preamp was what Jake showed me when I was demonstrating my complete and utter lack of skill on the thing!!

Which pickups you using and how much did you pay for all this little lot (not amp).

Cheers[/quote]
As i couldn't find a s/h one, I got a new Fishman Platinum from Thomann for £139 [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/fishman_proeq_platinum_bass.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/fishman_proeq_platinum_bass.htm[/url] and a s/h Shadow SH950 pickup on BassChat for £100 [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=101923&hl=Shadow"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...3&hl=Shadow[/url]

[farmer61]

[quote name='Clarky' post='993344' date='Oct 19 2010, 11:44 AM']As i couldn't find a s/h one, I got a new Fishman Platinum from Thomann for £139 [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/fishman_proeq_platinum_bass.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/fishman_proeq_platinum_bass.htm[/url] and a s/h Shadow SH950 pickup on BassChat for £100 [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=101923&hl=Shadow"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...3&hl=Shadow[/url][/quote]
Cheers Clarky. Guessed you'd bought the one off here, just saw the post in the For Sale Section.....!

I think my search begins

Edited October 19, 2010 by farmer61

[Clarky]

My setup seems to work but there's tons of other BC'ers with direct DB gigging experience so I would await their replies too. I know BurritoBass uses an Underwood direct to PA, usually, and jakesbass uses a David Gage Realist (the one that fits under the feet of the bridge). There's lots of different views on pickups (and mikes too). Most seem to like the Fishman Platinum Pro-EQ preamp though.

[farmer61]

[quote name='Clarky' post='993397' date='Oct 19 2010, 12:22 PM']My setup seems to work but there's tons of other BC'ers with direct DB gigging experience so I would await their replies too. I know BurritoBass uses an Underwood direct to PA, usually, and jakesbass uses a David Gage Realist (the one that fits under the feet of the bridge). There's lots of different views on pickups (and mikes too). Most seem to like the Fishman Platinum Pro-EQ preamp though.[/quote]

Yeah no worries, search has started but will wait a while to see what comes up in the s/h market etc. and do some pricing up.

[BobVbass]

It all depends on how loud you need to be really; piezos - like underwoods and bassmaxes ar good, nice sound etc and you can use whatever strings you like. Without a phase reverse pre amp (like the plat pro) you won't be able to play over a drummer without feeding back or at least not our one!!

Even with the plat pro in phase reverse I found it very difficult to get a solid tone and volume without being on the brink of feedback and distortion.

Magnetic pickups need steel strings so limit your string choice however I can go as loud as I like now (currently use a schaller - have a seymour duncan around somewhere as well) - I run this thru the plat pro for shaping and it sounds great - really full smooth sound. No finger board slaps etc - but you can always blend in a piezo if you need that.

So Plat Pro is a must - pickups depend on how loud you need to be & what strings you want to use really....

Edited October 19, 2010 by bob_pickard

[Clarky]

[quote name='farmer61' post='993405' date='Oct 19 2010, 12:30 PM']Yeah no worries, search has started but will wait a while to see what comes up in the s/h market etc. and do some pricing up.[/quote]
Several of the DB'ers on BC seem to have multiple pickups in their armamentarium (good word that) so I would start an Items Wanted search on BassChat before looking externally as you'll probably pick up something at a decent price. My Shadow would have been £140 new (a Realist is £175 new, BTW) so I saved nearly 40% by buying s/h. Not so sure you would get a Fishman Platinum though as they are rarely sold and when they do come up FS they seem to disappear faster than a whippet.

[TPJ]

I use either an Art Tube MP mic preamp into an AI Focus 1 or a DHA DI EQ into the same amp. The DHA is great becasue you can really shape the tone, but no phase reverse. The Art tames the piezo nicely but no eq.

Other times I run these preamps into a Mesa Walkabout and that sounds quite nice as well.

I'm not sure about using 15" cabs, I've had much better luck with 210s and 112s.

List of pickups I've used on my bass (remember everybody's bass responds differently)

- Fishman BP100: it didn't work on my bass, too microphonic. Tons of feedback.
- Upton Revolution ll: Great pickup and not quite as expensive and the Realist or Fishman Full Circle. A bit fiddly to install but once in it sounds great.
- K&K BassMax: Current pup but it's faulty. It has a big almost bass guitar tone to it on my bass. Worked really well.
- Now waiting for a Fishman Full Circle to arrive in the post. They are supposed to work well on cheap and expensive basses.

You might have a look at the Schatten passive wing pups. Inexpensive wing style pickup similar to the BassMax and Planet Wing.

[fatback]

btw the k&k bassmax that sits in the bridge wing is fairly cheap at $96 US. Got mine from Golihur, and delivery only took a few days.

[url="http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/1265-KANDK_SOUND_BASS_MAX_UPRIGHT_BASS_PICKUP_TRANSDUCER.html"]Golihur bassmax[/url]

[farmer61]

[quote name='Clarky' post='993415' date='Oct 19 2010, 12:36 PM']Several of the DB'ers on BC seem to have multiple pickups in their armamentarium (good word that) so I would start an Items Wanted search on BassChat before looking externally as you'll probably pick up something at a decent price. My Shadow would have been £140 new (a Realist is £175 new, BTW) so I saved nearly 40% by buying s/h. Not so sure you would get a Fishman Platinum though as they are rarely sold and when they do come up FS they seem to disappear faster than a whippet.[/quote]
I have a twichy trigger finger.

The Fishman Platinum is £140 and the Shadow 950 is £106 from Thomann and free shipping which if I just bought the Fishman would be £10.

Hmmmm

"Step away from Thomann, there's nothing to see here!"

[philfz6]

would ya believe it..came on to ask about pick ups,and all my answers are here..thanks people.
while im here, i might as well ask...is it a no no to drill a hole, maybe just near the f hole, and mount a proper jack socket..
always looks a bit iffy having a jack socket dangling from a bit of cable, even if it's cable tied etc etc..

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='philfz6' post='993638' date='Oct 19 2010, 03:09 PM']would ya believe it..came on to ask about pick ups,and all my answers are here..thanks people.
while im here, i might as well ask...is it a no no to drill a hole, maybe just near the f hole, and mount a proper jack socket..
always looks a bit iffy having a jack socket dangling from a bit of cable, even if it's cable tied etc etc..[/quote]

Sharp intake of breath

Use something like this:

Edited October 19, 2010 by derrenleepoole

[tinyd]

[quote name='TPJ' post='993449' date='Oct 19 2010, 01:08 PM']- K&K BassMax: Current pup but it's faulty. It has a big almost bass guitar tone to it on my bass. Worked really well.[/quote]

Yep, I agree. I have a BassMax and it works well, was easy to fit etc but it can sound a bit too much like a Precision bass at times, even with the Fishman Platinum Pro....

[Bilbo]

I have a K&K Sound Double Big Twin Upright Bass Pickup (£70ish) which sticks to the underside of the bridge (see pic attached) and its ok but I am thinking of a Plat Pro to help manage the sound at higher volumes (which I rarely require). It is interesting to add that, as my double bass is a five-string, I have to stick the pads under [i]the gaps between the strings [/i]and not under the strings as per instructed (they have since introduced a 5 string model but I am not going to buy it as I would probably prefer to wait until I can afford an upgrade).

[url="http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/1426-KANDK_SOUND_DOUBLE_BIG_TWIN_UPRIGHT_BASS_PICKUP.html"]K&K DBASS_PICKUP[/url]

[Cat Burrito]

I use a Shadow piezo pickup that like mpst of the above examples just sits in the bridge wings. It sounds like my bass and doesn't colour the sound. No amp, I use the D.I. and whatever D.I. box the soundman has. Simple. Feedback seems to be really highlight whether the soundman is used to double basses but usually they are & I never get a problem. If they are not then I suspect most setups would give them issues! (i.e. stop fiddling & just leave it alone!!!)

[jonny-lad]

[quote name='tinyd' post='993651' date='Oct 19 2010, 03:21 PM']Yep, I agree. I have a BassMax and it works well, was easy to fit etc but it can sound a bit too much like a Precision bass at times, even with the Fishman Platinum Pro....[/quote]
I have a BassMax too and I like it! I heard that it sounds good in a mix aswell, although I haven't gigged it to find out for myself as I've not been playing enough upright recently.

[Beedster]

I've recently bought (used and at good prices) five different PUPs and three different preamps so that I can use a lengthy process of trial and error in getting the sound right for my DB, my style of play, and the overall sound of the band live and recorded. I think what has surprised me most in learning about DB amplification is just how substantial the effect of different PUPs, preamps and amps is on resultant tone. I'd say that, compared to electric bass, the variability between these is perhaps 10 times greater overall. By that I mean that if I stick a single PUP bass like a Precision or 'ray through any of a range of PUPs, preamps, heads and cabs, the tone varies for sure, but each individual step makes a relatively small difference. With my DB, each stage has had a substantial and significant effect.

What I've found so far is that using a cheap bridge PUP with very mid-heavy O/P along with a K&K mic, which is relatively scooped, you get great usable live/recorded tone from the mic and a great monitoring signal from the PUP. I've also found that if you really want your DB to sound like a DB, a bass guitar amp isn't your best bet, at least, none of the two EUBs (Aria and Yamaha) or DB I've played through bass gear (Mesa, Hartke, Ashdown and B*******r have sounded anything like as real as when played through my AI gear.

C

[oldslapper]

Gigged my recently acquired Phil Jones briefcase last night.
The quartet is made up of 2 guitarists, 1 singer and moi on DB. Playing mainly swing/Django stuff.
Thought it might be a little under powered, so I was prepared for DI'ing in PA.
But the little blighter rocked, loads of bottom end. I placed it against the wall, as suggested and it blew me away.

Probably wouldn't be sufficient with a bigger band, with drums though. But clear precise sound....
A very happy slapper!

John

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Clarky' post='993324' date='Oct 19 2010, 11:28 AM']My 2p. Get piezo pickups that sit in the bridge wings (Underwood or Shadow) so can easily be installed or removed if necessary. Then a Fishman Platinum Pro preamp (which you can use to cut out the feedback and shapes the sound). Bingo! Thats what I have, into a MarkBass CMD121P combo.[/quote]

I've got a K&K Bass Max in the bridge on my laminate bass and it sounds pretty good live, both pizz and bowed. Using it with my bass guitar amp (Hartke LH500 -> Schroeder 1212L) I run it through a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ Bass first, but I've also run the pickup straight into a GK MB150 and got equally satisfying results. In both cases I got plenty of volume without feedback problems.

A local guy I know has a Realist on one of his basses and a Full Circle on the other, both his (fully carved) basses sound lush amplified. He did say, though, that the bass I currently own has had a Realist on it in the past and it didn't work out too well, so maybe bridge wing pups are a better choice on basses like mine with laminate tops.

[BassBus]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1001929' date='Oct 27 2010, 12:21 AM']A local guy I know has a Realist on one of his basses and a Full Circle on the other, both his (fully carved) basses sound lush amplified. He did say, though, that the bass I currently own has had a Realist on it in the past and it didn't work out too well, so maybe bridge wing pups are a better choice on basses like mine with laminate tops.[/quote]
Pickups are a bit like strings; some suit you, some suit the bass. I have used a realist but it packed in. Tried my old Fishman BP100 on my current DB and it sounded fine. It sounded horible on my first DB. Eventually put a Shadow SH 950 on and that has been very reliable and sounds fine.

I've never liked the sound of Fishman Platinum Pro EQ but I use a SansAmp BDDI to good effect.