Advanced Tuition

[ironside1966]

When a bass tutor says beginners to advanced welcome what do they mean by advanced?
after doing a bit of research on some local tutors web sites the standard of playing and seems no better then many of the people on bass chat. I expected to be wowed and inspired. not a word about any pro work

Edited October 19, 2010 by ironside1966

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='994104' date='Oct 19 2010, 09:14 PM']When a bass tutor says beginners to advanced welcome what do they mean by advanced?
after doing a bit of research on some local tutors web sites the standard of playing and seems no better then many of the people on bass chat. I expected to be wowed and inspired. not a word about any pro work[/quote]

I'd class my teacher as an "advanced" teacher. He wows me & inspires me every lesson.

Its not just all about technique, but fretboard knowledge, theory, groove, feel. Its these last things that i think makes one teacher stand out from another.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='J.R.Bass' post='994116' date='Oct 19 2010, 09:24 PM']I'd class my teacher as an "advanced" teacher. He wows me & inspires me every lesson.

Its not just all about technique, but fretboard knowledge, theory, groove, feel. Its these last things that i think makes one teacher stand out from another.[/quote]Wise words indeed.

[JMT3781]

on my teaching adverts i have "beginner to advanced".. i'm not really sure what it means.. But i feel confident in teaching whats considered to be the advanced playing styles... i really dunno, all my students are pretty much beginners

of course, other peoples ideas of advanced playing differ between people.. its all pretty subjective

Edited October 19, 2010 by JMT3781

[ironside1966]

[quote name='J.R.Bass' post='994116' date='Oct 19 2010, 09:24 PM']I'd class my teacher as an "advanced" teacher. He wows me & inspires me every lesson.

Its not just all about technique, but fretboard knowledge, theory, groove, feel. Its these last things that i think makes one teacher stand out from another.[/quote]

I think that’s my point, look at the projects of some of the teachers on BC and you can tell that they are class players working in quality bands or shows even though the playing is technically not difficult. Some of the tutors I looked at where in just good local bands many metal or indie with no mention of experience or pro work, often with a Universality qualification. I am not knocking the style of music or any qualifications I Just wondered how you know someone is suitable for someone who has been playing years.

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='994160' date='Oct 19 2010, 10:08 PM']I think that’s my point, look at the projects of some of the teachers on BC and you can tell that they are class players working in quality bands or shows even though the playing is technically not difficult. Some of the tutors I looked at where in just good local bands many metal or indie with no mention of experience or pro work, often with a Universality qualification. I am not knocking the style of music or any qualifications I Just wondered how you know someone is suitable for someone who has been playing years.[/quote]

There's a big difference between a Great player and a great teacher. Just because you can play well doesn't in turn mean you can teach. But great teachers are generally great players.

Choosing a teacher is hard work if you don't already know someone that's been taught by them.

Edited October 19, 2010 by J.R.Bass

[XB26354]

Having taught for over 15 years, my experience leads me to believe that great teachers (i.e., ones that are capable of teaching advanced students) posess, in order of importance:

The desire to teach, not just for the money but because they genuinely enjoy helping other people to develop new skills and abilities.
The ability to understand and communicate well to a wide variety of people from different backgrounds.
A sound knowledge of their instrument at a fundamental level - unless you're a genius this usually takes a long time (which is why I didn't start teaching until I had been playing for 10 years, 7 as a working pro). I'm a better teacher now than I was at the start, too.
The technical and theoretical knowledge to be able to relay such fundamental knowledge. If a teacher doesn't know their theory and cannot read music I wouldn't expect them to advertise as a teacher for advanced students.
Practical experience as a musician - learning to play is much more than notes and rhythms. I learned a lot about playing, gigging, locking in with a band and managing professional situations from my teachers.
The ability to gauge a student's strengths and weaknesses, and also how to best improve their overall ability
Prior teaching experience!

Burying one's ego and avoiding the temptation to show off helps, too.

[JMT3781]

re-read my post.. certainly looked like i was trying to big myself up.. Sorry

i think i was trying to use myself as evidence in not really knowing what makes an advanced bass teacher, in that i advertise but cant define what it means.

Completely agree with the above post.. all great attributes to what sounds like a great teacher

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='XB26354' post='994205' date='Oct 19 2010, 10:41 PM']Having taught for over 15 years, my experience leads me to believe that great teachers (i.e., ones that are capable of teaching advanced students) posess, in order of importance:

The desire to teach, not just for the money but because they genuinely enjoy helping other people to develop new skills and abilities.
The ability to understand and communicate well to a wide variety of people from different backgrounds.
A sound knowledge of their instrument at a fundamental level - unless you're a genius this usually takes a long time (which is why I didn't start teaching until I had been playing for 10 years, 7 as a working pro). I'm a better teacher now than I was at the start, too.
The technical and theoretical knowledge to be able to relay such fundamental knowledge. If a teacher doesn't know their theory and cannot read music I wouldn't expect them to advertise as a teacher for advanced students.
Practical experience as a musician - learning to play is much more than notes and rhythms. I learned a lot about playing, gigging, locking in with a band and managing professional situations from my teachers.
The ability to gauge a student's strengths and weaknesses, and also how to best improve their overall ability
Prior teaching experience!

Burying one's ego and avoiding the temptation to show off helps, too.[/quote]
Lots of truth in this...
The only thing I would add is my feeling that as a teacher one should work very hard to discover the elements of learning that engage and excite students, because when that is achieved the rest follows easily.
My concept of advanced really revolves around having a strong, demonstrable grasp of all that is required to operate professionally up to and including reading, improvising, and having creative input abilities.

[Doddy]

[quote name='XB26354' post='994205' date='Oct 19 2010, 10:41 PM']The technical and theoretical knowledge to be able to relay such fundamental knowledge. If a teacher doesn't know their theory and cannot read music I wouldn't expect them to advertise as a teacher for advanced students.[/quote]

Great point.
There are a lot of people who think that teaching at an 'advanced' level means they can show someone how to play
a Flea slap line or tapped arpeggios.
I know when I have a lesson,I want to know how and why things are working and to have it written out so I can work
on it later.I don't want to learn 'licks'.
Believe it or not,when I had my last lesson I ended up with about 4 bars written out by the end of it and that gave me enough to
study for at least 6 months,as well as a whole load of new ideas and concepts.Hopefully the same will happen in a couple of weeks
when I have my next lesson. That's what I want from an 'advanced' teacher.

[JMT3781]

[quote name='Doddy' post='994321' date='Oct 20 2010, 12:32 AM']Great point.
There are a lot of people who think that teaching at an 'advanced' level means they can show someone how to play
a Flea slap line or tapped arpeggios.
I know when I have a lesson,I want to know how and why things are working and to have it written out so I can work
on it later.I don't want to learn 'licks'.
Believe it or not,when I had my last lesson I ended up with about 4 bars written out by the end of it and that gave me enough to
study for at least 6 months,as well as a whole load of new ideas and concepts.Hopefully the same will happen in a couple of weeks
when I have my next lesson. That's what I want from an 'advanced' teacher.[/quote]

wow.
could you PM me the details for your teacher? staffordshire isn't too far from me

[Doddy]

[quote name='JMT3781' post='994328' date='Oct 20 2010, 12:41 AM']wow.
could you PM me the details for your teacher? staffordshire isn't too far from me[/quote]

I don't mind sharing........ It's Janek Gwizdala.

[JMT3781]

[quote name='Doddy' post='994335' date='Oct 20 2010, 12:48 AM']I don't mind sharing........ It's Janek Gwizdala.
[/quote]

oh... (says in a very mouselike tone)

i guess that explains the frequency of your lessons lol! I bet thats amazing. Good on you

[risingson]

Got taught music by Steve Berry for a long while. It's difficult to comprehend a musician so finely in tune with rhythmic, harmonic and melodic ideas as Steve until you've spoken to him, but he is flat out one of the most brilliant musicians I will ever encounter. I'd consider him very advanced as a teacher indeed.

[Doddy]

[quote name='JMT3781' post='994337' date='Oct 20 2010, 12:50 AM']oh... (says in a very mouselike tone)

i guess that explains the frequency of your lessons lol! I bet thats amazing. Good on you [/quote]

It is a big part of it.....but I learn so much each lesson,it can keep me studying for months.

[endorka]

I like Doddy's idea of turning this around, in the sense of: what would one personally look for in an advanced tutor?

A common reason for myself to do this is when I am playing something from a genre that I do not have advanced experience in, such as certain types of classical music. I can usually work out the mechanics of playing these pieces, but of course there is more to it than that. Unwritten laws concerning dynamics, note length, methods of handling passages with tricky bowing, how the music should feel, even the "backstory" behind it to help you play it as the composer intended. In my opinion, these items, and others like them, are what separates the competent from the advanced, both in players and teachers. In this sense, an advanced tutor is someone who has the ability to assist a competent musician to become advanced.

Other times, I seek help from a tutor if my conclusion of an areas of study is: "there are several ways in which I could achieve this: which would be the best way forward for me?" . Often I have a good idea of what it should be, and am seeking affirmation/confirmation from a tutor so I know I won't be wasting my time going down blind alleys, or pursuing inefficient learning methods.

Another reason is if I am trying to achieve something, and not quite getting there, I try to seek the help of someone who has achieved it. In these situations, it is often the case the one or two nuggets of useful information will solve the problem completely, but it may have taken years for me to discover them myself.

Jennifer

[Bilbo]

To me, an 'advanced' teacher should know everything there is to know about harmony, melody and rhythm. In short, if I go to a teacher, it is to find stuff out and if they don't know it, how can they be advanced? Now, having said that, I think it is important to acknowledge that you can use different teachers for different aspects of your playing. If you want to learn about jazz, you may want to seek a bass playing teacher if you want to learn about walking bass lines but, if you want to know advanced harmony, you may be better off looking up a pianist. Do you want to learn groove playing, ear training, improvisation - each area could require a different teacher.

There is, of course, the argument that a well rounded teacher may not have the superficial chops that some of us here can throw around at a Bass Bash but may be far more in tune with the fundamentals of playing and can nail those gaps that us self taught players ineveitably have. In his biography, one of Ron Carter's students, some guy called Victor Bailey, tells of his first lesson with Carter and describes being asked to play an F.

Not an F arpeggio or an F scale. Just an F; a single note. And the lesson starts from there.

Is your lesson one of a weekly series over years or a one off masterclass to nail a specific flaw in your playing? All of these scenarios may mean you want a different teacher. When I had a lesson off Jake, I didn't need him to tell me what scale to play over an F7b9, I needed him to show me how to hold the thing and get a note out of it without busting a blood vessel! If I want lessons in advanced arco playing, I know Jake would recommend another teacher more familiar with that kind of playing. Its horses for courses.

What I do fear is that people who can play some VIctor Wooten tricks think that this makes them advanced players (I know when I naield a few Jaco and Jeff Berlin things I thought I was the dogs... 20 years later I STILL can't get through a 12-bar blues in F to my own satisfaction). But the 'advanced' tag on a teachers advertisement is like the 'new and improved' tag on any other product. Its a sales trick to lure you into parting with your moolah. It is more important that you make sure that the teacher can teach you that which you wish to learn.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='risingson' post='994339' date='Oct 20 2010, 12:52 AM']Got taught music by Steve Berry for a long while. It's difficult to comprehend a musician so finely in tune with rhythmic, harmonic and melodic ideas as Steve until you've spoken to him, but he is flat out one of the most brilliant musicians I will ever encounter. I'd consider him very advanced as a teacher indeed.[/quote]
Steve is one of the most inspirational music educators in the UK IMV and for me it stems from the fact that he's a diamond guy. Being a fellow bass player I have not had much to do with him musically but I have had lunch at his house a few times (I used to hire his DB flight case) and know lots of people that work with him.

[risingson]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='994576' date='Oct 20 2010, 11:22 AM']Steve is one of the most inspirational music educators in the UK IMV and for me it stems from the fact that he's a diamond guy. Being a fellow bass player I have not had much to do with him musically but I have had lunch at his house a few times (I used to hire his DB flight case) and know lots of people that work with him.[/quote]

He used to teach me at Uni, inspired me every time I went to a lecture, which is more than can be said for most of my other lecturers. Same with Mike Walker as well should you know him too?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='risingson' post='994594' date='Oct 20 2010, 11:36 AM']He used to teach me at Uni, inspired me every time I went to a lecture, which is more than can be said for most of my other lecturers. Same with Mike Walker as well should you know him too?[/quote]
I have recorded and gigged with Mike a fair bit. Another great educator and I'm lucky to call him a good friend. Mike has given me pearls of wisdom that have pushed me forward immeasurably more than hours of pointless noodling I have done ever could.

[risingson]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='994606' date='Oct 20 2010, 11:45 AM']I have recorded and gigged with Mike a fair bit. Another great educator and I'm lucky to call him a good friend. Mike has given me pearls of wisdom that have pushed me forward immeasurably more than hours of pointless noodling I have done ever could.[/quote]


Mike taught me improvisation, as did Steve. Both were excellent teachers.

[lojo]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='994104' date='Oct 19 2010, 09:14 PM']When a bass tutor says beginners to advanced welcome what do they mean by advanced?
after doing a bit of research on some local tutors web sites the standard of playing and seems no better then many of the people on bass chat. I expected to be wowed and inspired. not a word about any pro work[/quote]


If I were looking for tuition, lack of reading skills surely would put me in the beginners camp, regardless of the fact I've been gigging off and on for 25 years

maybe this wording in an ad is more to not have any potential student rule you out as a teacher they would try, rather than a statement that has universal definition