Will this get better?

[SaxxyBass]

Hi everyone, hope it's okay to ask this here? - I'm trying to teach myself - total newbie to bass guitar since Wednesday! (but not to music - I'm a saxophonist) and very impatient! I'm finding my scales by ear and with the help of scale and tabs book, while trying to bear in mind posture, hand positions, finger numbers etc etc....but.....my coordination and the quality of the notes is pants (buzzy if i don't quite press the string down hard enough) will this get better once my fingers get stronger?

[Truckstop]

Yes!
Soon, fretting the note properly will be second nature. Speed will also come to you, strength, stamina... everything! It'll hurt for a while as the tips of your fingers develop callouses (unless you're already well calloused from saxophoning(?)), but after, it'll be fine. Totally natural. I remember struggling to get the note to ring true for a while, and then eventually it just came to me.
However, if it's buzzing on an open note, maybe your string height is a little too low?

Truckstop

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='998192' date='Oct 23 2010, 04:01 PM']Yes!
Soon, fretting the note properly will be second nature. Speed will also come to you, strength, stamina... everything! It'll hurt for a while as the tips of your fingers develop callouses (unless you're already well calloused from saxophoning(?)), but after, it'll be fine. Totally natural. I remember struggling to get the note to ring true for a while, and then eventually it just came to me.
However, if it's buzzing on an open note, maybe your string height is a little too low?

Truckstop[/quote]

Hey Truckstop, so good to hear that thankyou! I shall try and be patient No callouses on fingers from the Sax - only inside my lip when I play for too long and get tired!

Yes at the moment fingers are a bit sore and achey! Re the open note - I don't think it is but will check that.

[Fat Rich]

If you're fretting halfway between the frets you need a huge amount of pressure to stop the buzzing and you risk hurting yourself long term.

So try to drop your fingers as close to the fret as possible (without actually muting the note right on top of the fret) and you'll find you need much less pressure to get a clean note. It'll also make life easier if you decide to play fretless in the future.

Also a small amount of buzz is acceptable acoustically, but if you're getting much fret buzz through the amp then you need to clean up your technique.

Good luck!

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='998216' date='Oct 23 2010, 04:29 PM']If you're fretting halfway between the frets you need a huge amount of pressure to stop the buzzing and you risk hurting yourself long term.

So try to drop your fingers as close to the fret as possible (without actually muting the note right on top of the fret) and you'll find you need much less pressure to get a clean note. It'll also make life easier if you decide to play fretless in the future.

Also a small amount of buzz is acceptable acoustically, but if you're getting much fret buzz through the amp then you need to clean up your technique.

Good luck![/quote]

Ah okay - I have found that it's better closer to the fret but didnt' know if that was right!
many thanks

[SaxxyBass]

Update one week on....

[b]The Good[/b]....
[list]
[*]really enjoying my bass, definately playing the notes cleaner everyday, finding my scale patterns (majors/minors/pentas/blues) - blues walking bassline in a few different keys.
[*]Getting more comfortable and relaxed! and have had a couple of jam alongs to tracks (badly haha!)
[/list]
[b]The not so good![/b]
[list]
[*]left wrist ache after a while and a bit of a sore right arm where I'm resting it on the bass, fingers get a little sore after 20 minutes or so.
[*]Find it really difficult to know where all my notes are so am mainly playing by ear from the starting note - I'm used to knowing exactly what notes I'm playing as I play them on Sax....hopefully this will come in time.
[/list]
[b]The bad![/b]
My rhythm is pants atm

Saxxy

[iamthewalrus]

Great to see you're progressing on the instrument - welcome to the wonderful world of electric bass guitar!

Your left wrist shouldn't be aching - when you play, do you have any sharp bends in the wrist or awkward wrist angles whilst fretting the notes? If that is the case, then you may need to alter the height of the bass in relation to your upper body (depending on how tall you are, a good rule of thumb is to wear the bass across the mid section). If you're using the classical position of thumb on the back of the neck, you may be gripping it too tightly, so it may be a case of releasing some of the pressure.

Where your right arm is concerned - if possible, try & avoid a sharp bend in the wrist & forcing the bottom of your forearm onto the body of the bass. A lot of bass players have ended up with a lot of physical problems in the plucking arm as sharp angles tend to decrease the flow of blood into the tendons. If you can raise your forearm off the body of the bass, the wrist angle becomes straighter & the flow of blood into the tendons increases.

A guy by the name of Adam Nitti has some great tips on this stuff on his website: www.adamnitti.com

Hope this helps?

Cheers,
iamthewalrus

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='iamthewalrus' post='1003493' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:57 AM']Great to see you're progressing on the instrument - welcome to the wonderful world of electric bass guitar!

Your left wrist shouldn't be aching - when you play, do you have any sharp bends in the wrist or awkward wrist angles whilst fretting the notes? If that is the case, then you may need to alter the height of the bass in relation to your upper body (depending on how tall you are, a good rule of thumb is to wear the bass across the mid section). If you're using the classical position of thumb on the back of the neck, you may be gripping it too tightly, so it may be a case of releasing some of the pressure.

Where your right arm is concerned - if possible, try & avoid a sharp bend in the wrist & forcing the bottom of your forearm onto the body of the bass. A lot of bass players have ended up with a lot of physical problems in the plucking arm as sharp angles tend to decrease the flow of blood into the tendons. If you can raise your forearm off the body of the bass, the wrist angle becomes straighter & the flow of blood into the tendons increases.

A guy by the name of Adam Nitti has some great tips on this stuff on his website: www.adamnitti.com

Hope this helps?

Cheers,
iamthewalrus[/quote]

I'll check for the awkard angles in the left hand, and the bass height - it only seems to happen if I try to play for longer periods and try to jam along to something - so could be tension creeping in maybe? perhaps I'm just expecting too much too soon

Right arm - I'm keeping the wrist in a natural line as possible and avoiding the sharp angle as you say (have had one op for carpal tunnel already so have to be careful there!) my right arm and shoulder is a bit dodgy and I can't hold the weight of my arm up independantly for too long - is this what I should be doing? or is it okay to just lightly rest against the front edge of the bass?

[iamthewalrus]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1003930' date='Oct 28 2010, 03:54 PM']I'll check for the awkard angles in the left hand, and the bass height - it only seems to happen if I try to play for longer periods and try to jam along to something - so could be tension creeping in maybe? perhaps I'm just expecting too much too soon

Right arm - I'm keeping the wrist in a natural line as possible and avoiding the sharp angle as you say (have had one op for carpal tunnel already so have to be careful there!) my right arm and shoulder is a bit dodgy and I can't hold the weight of my arm up independantly for too long - is this what I should be doing? or is it okay to just lightly rest against the front edge of the bass? [/quote]

If you're feeling pain, it might be wise to give things a rest until it goes away. Bass guitar is a physical instrument, & pays to build things up slowly (play your Charlie Parker "heads" at a slow tempo....).

A slight bend in the right wrist (IMO) is ok, as is just resting your forearm on the body. If you're "digging in" with your right hand, be careful that the forearm isn't pressing down hard on the body.

Let us know how things go....

Cheers,
iamthewalrus

[Bloodaxe]

Try this guy, especially the videos:

[url="http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/"]http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/[/url]

The soreness in your fingertips is just a sign that callouses are forming, keep it at 1/2 hr per day for the moment & gently increase the session length as you go on. If you play too long all that'll happen is you get blisters.

The right hand is a tricky one... it sounds like you're doing things "properly", but I'd check that your forearm isn't pivoting on the edge of the bass. I sold one bass (Aria Magna series) because the body had a 'crisp' edge & I found it uncomfortable. IMO you need a decent-sized roundover to be comfortable or even a chamfer. What bass have you got?

Keep experimenting with strap length, posture & stance - we're all built differently, so there's no universal "correct" method. Eventually you'll hit on a combination that works for you.

One other question... Do you practice standing up, or sitting down?

Pete.

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='iamthewalrus' post='1005640' date='Oct 29 2010, 07:16 PM']If you're feeling pain, it might be wise to give things a rest until it goes away. Bass guitar is a physical instrument, & pays to build things up slowly (play your Charlie Parker "heads" at a slow tempo....).

A slight bend in the right wrist (IMO) is ok, as is just resting your forearm on the body. If you're "digging in" with your right hand, be careful that the forearm isn't pressing down hard on the body.

Let us know how things go....

Cheers,
iamthewalrus[/quote]


Yep I think I've been trying to play everything up to tempo and I'm not ready yet - that's when I feel discomfort the rest of the time is fine. I'm definately only resting the right arm

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='1005738' date='Oct 29 2010, 08:42 PM']Try this guy, especially the videos:

[url="http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/"]http://adamneely.com/2010/07/17/that-pesky-left-hand/[/url]

The soreness in your fingertips is just a sign that callouses are forming, keep it at 1/2 hr per day for the moment & gently increase the session length as you go on. If you play too long all that'll happen is you get blisters.

The right hand is a tricky one... it sounds like you're doing things "properly", but I'd check that your forearm isn't pivoting on the edge of the bass. I sold one bass (Aria Magna series) because the body had a 'crisp' edge & I found it uncomfortable. IMO you need a decent-sized roundover to be comfortable or even a chamfer. What bass have you got?

Keep experimenting with strap length, posture & stance - we're all built differently, so there's no universal "correct" method. Eventually you'll hit on a combination that works for you.

One other question... Do you practice standing up, or sitting down?

Pete.[/quote]

Thanks for the link - I've seen that one before - but very useful to watch again and makes sense.

No blisters so I'll keep on doing what I'm doing.

There is a sort of smoothed away section where my arm goes - I've put a sports wrist band on which helps.

You'd probably laugh if I told you what bass I have! suffice to say it's not one of the usual well known brands - it's an online shop own brand cheapy with accessories it's all I could afford and my seasoned bass player friend has told me its modelled on a Fender Precision but he thinks it's very good value for the money

I vary between standing and sitting - I actually find standing easier as I can put the bass in the most comfortable position - I find I can have the fret board up a little more rather than level with the body - I seem to get a more natural hand position that way?- I have a gel pad on my shoulder strap which helps alot too!

[SaxxyBass]

Reporting in at end of week 3 :-

[b]The good[/b]
[list]
[*]I'm playing along to blues tracks with a simple walking bass (my blues in all keys backing tracks that I use for Sax practice).
[*]Fingers tips have toughened right up and right arm is now comfortable.
[/list]
[b]The not so good[/b]
[list]
[*]I'm not looking at the fret board as I was craning my neck, I'm playing by feel which is a bit hit and miss in places and a few bum notes and buzzing.
[*]Fingers still aren't particularly strong or dextrous.
[/list]
[b]The bad[/b]
[list]
[*]My shoulder hurts from the weight even with a gel pad on the strap - so am having to play sitting.
[*]I'm very impatient!
[/list]
Generally getting pretty hooked on this instrument!

[thisnameistaken]

Sounds like things are coming along nicely for you. How is your left wrist coping? That can be an awkward joint for bass guitarists because the neck is so long - the lower positions can be a long way away, and you need all your fingertips to be able to touch the board - all adds up to discomfort if you're not careful. Try to stay relaxed, don't stretch for one-finger-per-fret at the lowest positions, use the first knuckle of your thumb against the back of the neck rather than the pad/tip, basically do whatever you need to do to keep that joint within acceptable comfort parameters!

[Bloodaxe]

Note Mr Dunn's left hand positioning at the low end. Don't recall ever hearing of him having CTS

From your post, things seem to be coming together, albeit gently. This is fine & good - it's not a race. Don't be afraid to look at your left hand every so often to "recalibrate" it.
It might also be that your bass needs a good setup. If the action is a bit high, this can lead to problems of strength & dexterity as you're fighting the damn thing rather than playing it.

As to the shoulder ache, two questions:

1: How wide is your strap? if it's narrow (2" or thereabouts) it could still focus the weight even with a gel pad. A good plain wide (3" or greater) leather strap has always worked for me.

2: How heavy is your bass? Weigh yourself on the bathroom scales with the bass & then without and subtract yourself to get a rough estimate. It might be that you've got something made out of Granitewood & it's time to move to something more lightweight.

Without knowing what you've got it's hard to make any suggestions tbh. Don't worry if it's a no-name copy of a copy or even a Woolies special, you won't get howls of derisive laughter coz it ain't a Fodera (FWIW [u][i]the[/i][/u] best bass I've played this year apart from mine was Wayne's Encore Precision fretless at the Lonndon Bash back in the summer - absolutely awesome).

Pete. Edited November 4, 2010 by Bloodaxe

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1011532' date='Nov 4 2010, 12:22 AM']Sounds like things are coming along nicely for you. How is your left wrist coping? That can be an awkward joint for bass guitarists because the neck is so long - the lower positions can be a long way away, and you need all your fingertips to be able to touch the board - all adds up to discomfort if you're not careful. Try to stay relaxed, don't stretch for one-finger-per-fret at the lowest positions, use the first knuckle of your thumb against the back of the neck rather than the pad/tip, basically do whatever you need to do to keep that joint within acceptable comfort parameters![/quote]

Left wrist seems okay now thanks - feeling it in the back of my hand a little now (nothing too drastic) so doing lots of excercises for the tendons. Good tip re the thumb - thumb joint is already pretty knackered from the Sax but seems to cope okay

I've seen a youtube tutorial about not worrying about one finger per fret if its easier on your hand so have taken that on board.


[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='1011578' date='Nov 4 2010, 03:59 AM']

Note Mr Dunn's left hand positioning at the low end. Don't recall ever hearing of him having CTS

From your post, things seem to be coming together, albeit gently. This is fine & good - it's not a race. Don't be afraid to look at your left hand every so often to "recalibrate" it.
It might also be that your bass needs a good setup. If the action is a bit high, this can lead to problems of strength & dexterity as you're fighting the damn thing rather than playing it.

As to the shoulder ache, two questions:

1: How wide is your strap? if it's narrow (2" or thereabouts) it could still focus the weight even with a gel pad. A good plain wide (3" or greater) leather strap has always worked for me.

2: How heavy is your bass? Weigh yourself on the bathroom scales with the bass & then without and subtract yourself to get a rough estimate. It might be that you've got something made out of Granitewood & it's time to move to something more lightweight.

Without knowing what you've got it's hard to make any suggestions tbh. Don't worry if it's a no-name copy of a copy or even a Woolies special, you won't get howls of derisive laughter coz it ain't a Fodera (FWIW [u][i]the[/i][/u] best bass I've played this year apart from mine was Wayne's Encore Precision fretless at the Lonndon Bash back in the summer - absolutely awesome).

Pete.[/quote]

I LOVE Green Onions!! I remember when this was in the charts! - we play this in our band.

Our guitar player suggested I use a mirror or webcam to watch how I am playing which I thought was a good idea - will get myself the latter I think. A very good bass player friend is going to come round and set the bass up for me as soon as he gets time - he said it does need a bit of tweaking after whch he said I should find it nicer - even though he said it actually plays quite well

Yep cheapy strap about 2" wide if that - came with the bass - will look into a wider one.


I don't know the weight of the bass my scales have broken (No it wasn't me before you ask!)

Okay here goes!!! DONT LAUGH! - remember I don't know one bass from another although I am learning fast!! and.....
I am, after all, growing old more disgracefully than most Grandmothers!!! it's a Gear4music jobby [url="http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Electric-G-4-Bass-Guitar-and-Amp-Pack-Black/1E"]http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/...p-Pack-Black/1E[/url]

Saxxy

Edited November 4, 2010 by SaxxyBass

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1011776' date='Nov 4 2010, 10:22 AM']Okay here goes!!! DONT LAUGH! - remember I don't know one bass from another although I am learning fast!! and.....
I am, after all, growing old more disgracefully than most Grandmothers!!! it's a Gear4music jobby [url="http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Electric-G-4-Bass-Guitar-and-Amp-Pack-Black/1E"]http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/...p-Pack-Black/1E[/url]

Saxxy [/quote]

Looks like a steal for £115. The headstock puts me in mind of the current SX style. If it's from the same factory it could well be very good indeed - SX are quite highly regarded by many players. Considering the rubbish that was aimed at starters when I started (1982), there's so much good stuff today it's staggering.
The link says its a basswood body (short "a" - like the fish/beer), so I doubt it'll weigh that much. That leaves either the strap or [i]possibly[/i] your stance.

For straps see what your local emporium has to offer. I can thoroughly recommend these: [url="http://www.surreymusic.co.uk/acatalog/Leathergraft_Leather_Straps.html"]http://www.surreymusic.co.uk/acatalog/Leat...her_Straps.html[/url] (I've not dealt with Surrey Music, but Leathergraft's website is horrible). I've a couple of their XL straps, 2.5" wide & very sturdy. Not expensive either.

If you're really flush, hunt down a [url="http://www.levysleathers.com/browse;cat,818;Bass-Guitar-Straps"]Levy's Leathers[/url] strap. I've had a Levy's M4 for about 20 years & it's still going strong.

BTW that Stax/Volt gig is out on [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stax-Volt-Revue-Live-Norway-Region/dp/B000UB054U"]DVD[/url].

Pete.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1011776' date='Nov 4 2010, 10:22 AM']Okay here goes!!! DONT LAUGH! - remember I don't know one bass from another although I am learning fast!! and.....
I am, after all, growing old more disgracefully than most Grandmothers!!! it's a Gear4music jobby [url="http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Electric-G-4-Bass-Guitar-and-Amp-Pack-Black/1E"]http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/...p-Pack-Black/1E[/url] [/quote]

Hey my first bass cost me £50 and was made out of plywood. I also think the tuners were made out of bonfire toffee judging by how easily they snapped. Your P copy can't be any worse than that.

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='1011801' date='Nov 4 2010, 10:54 AM']Looks like a steal for £115. The headstock puts me in mind of the current SX style. If it's from the same factory it could well be very good indeed - SX are quite highly regarded by many players. Considering the rubbish that was aimed at starters when I started (1982), there's so much good stuff today it's staggering.
The link says its a basswood body (short "a" - like the fish/beer), so I doubt it'll weigh that much. That leaves either the strap or [i]possibly[/i] your stance.

For straps see what your local emporium has to offer. I can thoroughly recommend these: [url="http://www.surreymusic.co.uk/acatalog/Leathergraft_Leather_Straps.html"]http://www.surreymusic.co.uk/acatalog/Leat...her_Straps.html[/url] (I've not dealt with Surrey Music, but Leathergraft's website is horrible). I've a couple of their XL straps, 2.5" wide & very sturdy. Not expensive either.

If you're really flush, hunt down a [url="http://www.levysleathers.com/browse;cat,818;Bass-Guitar-Straps"]Levy's Leathers[/url] strap. I've had a Levy's M4 for about 20 years & it's still going strong.

BTW that Stax/Volt gig is out on [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stax-Volt-Revue-Live-Norway-Region/dp/B000UB054U"]DVD[/url].

Pete.[/quote]

My bass player friend said it was pretty good quality too, so I'm lovin my bass more and more! (as I say I haven't a clue what is good or bad but the price was definately right for me!)

I bought a Gear4music Soprano Sax too - took it to the tech to set it up and he said it was super quality for the money - I'd seen reviews of it being compared as being identical to other company own named brands, presumably the same thing happens with guitars?

Yeah difficult to say re the shoulder - I've got a feeling it could be tension as I get the same thing if I spend too long on the computer concentrating - think I may be hunching the shoulder - I've not really played that much standing up so I'll work on that tension while sitting down before I rush off and spend any more money - tempted as I am - those padded leather straps look lovely!!

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1011929' date='Nov 4 2010, 12:25 PM']Hey my first bass cost me £50 and was made out of plywood. I also think the tuners were made out of bonfire toffee judging by how easily they snapped. Your P copy can't be any worse than that. [/quote]

I'm thinking more and more that I have a bargain! Yep we've all gotta start somewhere

[SaxxyBass]

Hmmm just found this.....might be worth considering as I'm a bit on the old side!
[url="http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/products/2494-planet_waves_50dare000_dare_strap"]http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/products/24...e000_dare_strap[/url]

[fatback]

On the one-finger-per-fret business, don;t get hung up on that. I always played that way until lately I learned the Simandl technique for double bass. You just use your little finger and third finger together as one, each supporting the other.

Now I use it all the time on the low end of the electric. Very relaxing. Great if you have small hands.

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='fatback' post='1012165' date='Nov 4 2010, 03:18 PM']On the one-finger-per-fret business, don;t get hung up on that. I always played that way until lately I learned the Simandl technique for double bass. You just use your little finger and third finger together as one, each supporting the other.

Now I use it all the time on the low end of the electric. Very relaxing. Great if you have small hands. [/quote]

Do you know what - I've been doing that with my third and little finger - makes it so much easier I thought it must be wrong!

[fatback]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1012266' date='Nov 4 2010, 04:26 PM']Do you know what - I've been doing that with my third and little finger - makes it so much easier I thought it must be wrong![/quote]

Hey, nice one Great minds etc.

The idea seems to be that the third finger is the weakest finger, so it needs the help.

[SaxxyBass]

I'm still here battling away with it


My playing is getting better and I'm learning my way around the fretboard now with various scales and exercises. I can jam along in simple triads (without looking) to major and minor 12 bar blues in different keys keeping time. I'm working on keeping the note ringing until I hit the next fret - I've been damping it a bit too early and clipping it.

I have on order a 3.75" softie Leathergraft strap which should be here tomorrow - meanwhile I've battled on with the gel pad under the 2" strap - I'm fairly comfortable in my arms hands and fingers and even my shoulder......Now for the problematic part - I've notice for the past 2 days that I have a bit of pain while playing between my left shoulder blade and my spine - could this be lack of strength in my back muscles because I am a weak old lady? (I manage my tenor sax with no problem for four hour rehearsals!) should I keep just playing a little everyday and see if it goes away?

Fed up now as I'm really enjoying playing

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1020499' date='Nov 11 2010, 06:19 PM']I'm still here battling away with it

My playing is getting better and I'm learning my way around the fretboard now with various scales and exercises. I can jam along in simple triads (without looking) to major and minor 12 bar blues in different keys keeping time. I'm working on keeping the note ringing until I hit the next fret - I've been damping it a bit too early and clipping it.[/quote]
That's good to hear, told yus it'd come together

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1020499' date='Nov 11 2010, 06:19 PM']I have on order a 3.75" softie Leathergraft strap which should be here tomorrow - meanwhile I've battled on with the gel pad under the 2" strap - I'm fairly comfortable in my arms hands and fingers and even my shoulder......Now for the problematic part - [b]I've notice for the past 2 days that I have a bit of pain while playing between my left shoulder blade and my spine - could this be lack of strength in my back muscles[/b] because I am a weak old lady? (I manage my tenor sax with no problem for four hour rehearsals!) [u][b]should I keep just playing a little everyday and see if it goes away?
[/b][/u]
Fed up now as I'm really enjoying playing [/quote]
NO! STOP! (seriously).
Make an appointment with your quack & get it checked out (take the bass & strap too - it may help). I'm [i][b][u]not[/u][/b][/i] medically qualified, but I've suffered a pinched nerve in my back before & your description is worryingly close. If that is what has happened, continued playing will make it worse. NEVER attempt to "play through the pain" as it can/will compound any complaint.

If your GP appears to be vague on the subject, demand to be referred &/or get a second opinion. I had one that was of the opinion that back pain was a complete mystery that came & went as it pleased Thankfully my current doc is brilliant & prescribed a fantastic anti-inflammatory plus gave me a couple of simple, gentle exercises that really helped. I still get the odd twinge, but a shift in posture sorts it out.

Pete.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Bloodaxe