Will this get better?

[SaxxyBass]

I've just had a thought - it's not been a problem up til 2 days ago and has only appeared since I've just increased the weight of my dumbells - 3 days ago! so I suppose it may be that? the good thing is it's not hurting now - was only toward the end of playing that I noticed yesterday and today. I think I'll stop both for a couple of days and see what happens

Edited November 11, 2010 by SaxxyBass

[Bloodaxe]

It does seem a bit of a co-incidence. Give it a day or three off & a few long hot Radox baths - that [i]might[/i] be enough to let everything settle down - then try again. Stop at the slightest hint of discomfort though & seek professional advice.

Pete.

[wal4string]

Try playing your riffs at a slower tempo but with a metronome. Then slowly add BPM as you become more comfortable with your playing, this will make sure you keep good time/groove.

I went the other way, first bass and then the flute, I was shocked when my tutor told me my timing was all over the place.

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='wal4string' post='1023000' date='Nov 13 2010, 11:19 PM']Try playing your riffs at a slower tempo but with a metronome. Then slowly add BPM as you become more comfortable with your playing, this will make sure you keep good time/groove.

I went the other way, first bass and then the flute, I was shocked when my tutor told me my timing was all over the place.[/quote]

On any new instrument I suppose you'll be finding your way round it more slowly so thats bound to happen!

I'm so impatient I just want to jam along to things, then of course it all goes wrong! However I can now do this with reasonable success to the slower blues tracks now on my 'blues in all keys' playalong I'll just stick that that for my jamming and as you suggest do my scales and riffs with the metronome (set at about 10bpm )

Good news is my back seems fine now I do think it will take time for me to build the right muscles to take the weight (i've given up with the weight training too much effort anyway ) and my Leathergraft strap arrived - it's so comfortable

[SaxxyBass]

Hi all,

Get over one problem and find another! I'm getting a bit confused about how many frets you should be able to stretch across, I'm lucky if my fingers stretch comfortably across two frets up the widest frets end, and 3 in the thinner frets.

I have medium size hands and if I place them face down on the desk they span 6.5 inches from tip of little finger to tip of index finger, I've studied the correct way to have your hand in the natural position with straight as possible wrist, fingers curled naturally so the tips of fingers are on the strings, but as soon I stretch them the any further than that the back of my hand hurts. So at the moment while playing I'm sort of "hopping" my fingers where I should be stretching across the frets as I don't want to do any damage to my hand. Where I can I'm playing the notes close together in a box area. Is this something that will come or is it that I have tight muscles and tendons? Am I expecting too much at once? Or shall I just accept that I have no ability to stretch the fingers and adapt to it?

And to think I took this up for pleasure - it's becoming a challenge now!

Edited November 15, 2010 by SaxxyBass

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1024811' date='Nov 15 2010, 04:25 PM']Hi all,

Get over one problem and find another! I'm getting a bit confused about [i][b]how many frets you should be able to stretch across[/b][/i], I'm lucky if my fingers stretch comfortably across two frets up the widest frets end, and 3 in the thinner frets.[/quote]
No such animal.

We're all built & wired up slightly differently, so the notion that there's a 'one size fits all' approach is a complete fallacy.
There's a sporting chance that things will ease up as you progress, but you may find that you'd be better off with a medium-scale (32"), or even a short-scale (30.5") instrument. I experienced some (minor) discomfort when I switched from a 32" to a 34" - it passed within a week or two, but there's still things I can't play on a long-scale bass that are a breeze on the medium. So it goes.

See how it goes for a bit, & if there's no sign of things easing up start casting around for something better suited to you.

Where in Essex are you?

Pete.

[louisthebass]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1024811' date='Nov 15 2010, 04:25 PM']Hi all,

Get over one problem and find another! I'm getting a bit confused about how many frets you should be able to stretch across, I'm lucky if my fingers stretch comfortably across two frets up the widest frets end, and 3 in the thinner frets.

I have medium size hands and if I place them face down on the desk they span 6.5 inches from tip of little finger to tip of index finger, I've studied the correct way to have your hand in the natural position with straight as possible wrist, fingers curled naturally so the tips of fingers are on the strings, but as soon I stretch them the any further than that the back of my hand hurts. So at the moment while playing I'm sort of "hopping" my fingers where I should be stretching across the frets as I don't want to do any damage to my hand. Where I can I'm playing the notes close together in a box area. Is this something that will come or is it that I have tight muscles and tendons? Am I expecting too much at once? Or shall I just accept that I have no ability to stretch the fingers and adapt to it?

And to think I took this up for pleasure - it's becoming a challenge now! [/quote]

One of the previous posters has mentioned the 1-2-4 figering (which comes from the Simandl method for Double Bass). I personally find this works fine in the first 5 fret area, even on a 5 string. It is possible to use the OFPF system down low, using a pivot system (don't anchor your thumb on the back of the neck, but shift it in line with your fretting hand). You can save your hands a lot of pain by adapting either of those fretting systems.

Cheers,
louisthebass

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='1025025' date='Nov 15 2010, 07:05 PM']No such animal.

We're all built & wired up slightly differently, so the notion that there's a 'one size fits all' approach is a complete fallacy.
There's a sporting chance that things will ease up as you progress, but you may find that you'd be better off with a medium-scale (32"), or even a short-scale (30.5") instrument. I experienced some (minor) discomfort when I switched from a 32" to a 34" - it passed within a week or two, but there's still things I can't play on a long-scale bass that are a breeze on the medium. So it goes.

See how it goes for a bit, & if there's no sign of things easing up start casting around for something better suited to you.

Where in Essex are you?

Pete.[/quote]

Hi Pete,

thanks that's comforting to know because I don't want to give up! I didn't know there were different lengths - I'm learning fast here! I had a little go on a mate's bass it was a Hohner Headless Jack Pro and it felt so light compared to mine and the neck felt really dainty and may possibly be for sale - do you know what scale they are?

I'm from near Chelmsford.


[quote name='louisthebass' post='1025159' date='Nov 15 2010, 08:30 PM']One of the previous posters has mentioned the 1-2-4 figering (which comes from the Simandl method for Double Bass). I personally find this works fine in the first 5 fret area, even on a 5 string. It is possible to use the OFPF system down low, using a pivot system (don't anchor your thumb on the back of the neck, but shift it in line with your fretting hand). You can save your hands a lot of pain by adapting either of those fretting systems.

Cheers,
louisthebass[/quote]

Hi louisthebass, Yes I've found some stuff on line recommending not anchoring your thumb and I'll do a google for the Simandl method. many thanks

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1025223' date='Nov 15 2010, 09:23 PM']Hi Pete,

thanks that's comforting to know because I don't want to give up! I didn't know there were different lengths - I'm learning fast here! I had a little go on a mate's bass it was a Hohner Headless Jack Pro and it felt so light compared to mine and the neck felt really dainty and may possibly be for sale - do you know what scale they are?[/quote]
Pretty sure that the Hohner Jack is 34" scale, so at first glance it wouldn't necessarily work. However... body geometry (both the bass & the player ) plays a huge part in whether we feel comfortable with any given instrument, so it could be that it just fits you.

One thing to watch with those though... I believe they use Steinberger-style double ball-end strings, which is likely to restrict your choices & prove more expensiver than regular single-ended strings. Not sure if there's an adapter kit available that allows you to use normal strings.

BTW, I only asked about your location to see if you were anywhere near this:

[url="http://www.coachandhorsesbluesjam.com/home.shtml"]http://www.coachandhorsesbluesjam.com/home.shtml[/url]

Doesn't look like you are particularly, but if by any chance it grabs you , drop me a PM or e-mail & I'll endeavour to fetch up with a medium-scale that might help to give you a better idea as to what might suit.

P.

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='1025247' date='Nov 15 2010, 09:52 PM']Pretty sure that the Hohner Jack is 34" scale, so at first glance it wouldn't necessarily work. However... body geometry (both the bass & the player ) plays a huge part in whether we feel comfortable with any given instrument, so it could be that it just fits you.

One thing to watch with those though... I believe they use Steinberger-style double ball-end strings, which is likely to restrict your choices & prove more expensiver than regular single-ended strings. Not sure if there's an adapter kit available that allows you to use normal strings.

BTW, I only asked about your location to see if you were anywhere near this:

[url="http://www.coachandhorsesbluesjam.com/home.shtml"]http://www.coachandhorsesbluesjam.com/home.shtml[/url]

Doesn't look like you are particularly, but if by any chance it grabs you , drop me a PM or e-mail & I'll endeavour to fetch up with a medium-scale that might help to give you a better idea as to what might suit.

P.[/quote]

Okay - I'll bear that about the strings in mind - I won't rush into anything though - a good idea to try a few different ones I suppose - it may be a case persevering with the one I've got for bit longer - funny thing today with the new strap the bass felt very comfortable but yesterday it didn't - today it was the back of the hand I can remember going through similar trials, errors and pain with the Sax when I first started!

I've not been the Coach and Horses jam - yes it is a fair trek and I'm a wimp going towards London on my own so if I can bribe im indoors to take me I'll let you know

[thisnameistaken]

If necessary I can stretch to one-finger-per-fret all the way along a standard 34" scale bass, but if it isn't required I will happily use 1-2-4 fingering across a whole tone instead because it's certainly much more comfortable.

The problems start when you start trying to play rocksteady on a double bass (as I have been required to do recently), and everything is nimble 1-3-5 patterns in the lowest positions. The scale on my upright is 42" But I don't think any human can withstand that. You end up changing position twice per bar, which sucks. Especially when you're worried about intonation and trying to sing harmony at the same time.

When it works it sounds great though. I console myself with that, whilst wearing wrist splints to bed each night (not even ****ing joking).

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1025435' date='Nov 16 2010, 02:59 AM']If necessary I can stretch to one-finger-per-fret all the way along a standard 34" scale bass, but if it isn't required I will happily use 1-2-4 fingering across a whole tone instead because it's certainly much more comfortable.

The problems start when you start trying to play rocksteady on a double bass (as I have been required to do recently), and everything is nimble 1-3-5 patterns in the lowest positions. The scale on my upright is 42" But I don't think any human can withstand that. You end up changing position twice per bar, which sucks. Especially when you're worried about intonation and trying to sing harmony at the same time.

When it works it sounds great though. I console myself with that, whilst wearing wrist splints to bed each night (not even ****ing joking).[/quote]

Hi,

I've tried to find out how to use 1-2-4 method but not sure exactly how it works - is it just a case of
fret 1 - finger 1
fret 2 - finger 2
fret 3 finger 3&4 together
fret 4 slide fingers 3&4 along to it together?

I've been there with the wrist splints - had carpal tunnel op on the left hand many years ago - I managed to avoid having my right hand done -somehow learned to sleep without crooking my wrists!

and could you just clarify what is a 1-3-5 pattern? is that a fret pattern?

[fatback]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1025560' date='Nov 16 2010, 09:41 AM']Hi,

I've tried to find out how to use 1-2-4 method but not sure exactly how it works - is it just a case of
fret 1 - finger 1
fret 2 - finger 2
fret 3 finger 3&4 together
fret 4 slide fingers 3&4 along to it together?

I've been there with the wrist splints - had carpal tunnel op on the left hand many years ago - I managed to avoid having my right hand done -somehow learned to sleep without crooking my wrists!

and could you just clarify what is a 1-3-5 pattern? is that a fret pattern?[/quote]

Yes to the 1-2-4; that's Simandl exactly. I presume thisnameistaken means 1-3-5 the triad, and he has my sympathy. Major triads without an open string are a pest on DB (I'm in the same boat exactly).

When you play one-fret-per-string, pivoting the thumb is good, but it's important not to slide the thumb. The idea (or at least the way I learned to do it) is to rotate the thumb. It works very well. Move the thumb to where it would be if you played one per fret, then fix it there for that chord. Get the extra reach by rotating it.

Keeping the thumb in position makes it easy to move round the neck accurately. If you want to play fretless ever, you have to get in the habit of fixing the thumb or your intonation will wander all over the shop.

On the shoulder pain, have you tried stretching before and after playing?

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='fatback' post='1025708' date='Nov 16 2010, 12:05 PM']Yes to the 1-2-4; that's Simandl exactly. I presume thisnameistaken means 1-3-5 the triad, and he has my sympathy. Major triads without an open string are a pest on DB (I'm in the same boat exactly).

When you play one-fret-per-string, pivoting the thumb is good, but it's important not to slide the thumb. The idea (or at least the way I learned to do it) is to rotate the thumb. It works very well. Move the thumb to where it would be if you played one per fret, then fix it there for that chord. Get the extra reach by rotating it.

Keeping the thumb in position makes it easy to move round the neck accurately. If you want to play fretless ever, you have to get in the habit of fixing the thumb or your intonation will wander all over the shop.

On the shoulder pain, have you tried stretching before and after playing?[/quote]

Ah okay thats cool I'll practice that. Right yes now I'm with you - a chord triad - I'm getting befuddled with finger numbers, fret number AND note numbers!!


So if I play 1-2-4 I won't be able to anchor the thumb?

Re the shoulder - that seems fine now with my nice wide soft strap! yes I always stretch - I do that for the Sax too - as I say it seems to go from one problem to a new one every few days....I just wanna get going and play!

I still have a little pain in the back of my left hand so I may well rest it today (must resist...must resist! )

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1025772' date='Nov 16 2010, 12:44 PM']Ah okay thats cool I'll practice that. Right yes now I'm with you - a chord triad - I'm getting befuddled with finger numbers, fret number AND note numbers!![/quote]

Sorry, my bad! I don't have five fingers, I'm from Yorkshire not Norfolk.

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1025772' date='Nov 16 2010, 12:44 PM']So if I play 1-2-4 I won't be able to anchor the thumb?[/quote]

If you are fingering 1-2-4, then if you need to play a note beyond the span of your fingers you need to move your whole hand to a new position.

Sometimes you can stretch for it, but don't make a habit of that. It's better for your wrist to change position rather than stressing your tendons with a stretch.

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1025885' date='Nov 16 2010, 02:09 PM']Sorry, my bad! I don't have five fingers, I'm from Yorkshire not Norfolk. [/quote]

I should have realised what you meant but my two brain cells are working overtime atm
[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1025885' date='Nov 16 2010, 02:09 PM']If you are fingering 1-2-4, then if you need to play a note beyond the span of your fingers you need to move your whole hand to a new position.

Sometimes you can stretch for it, but don't make a habit of that. It's better for your wrist to change position rather than stressing your tendons with a stretch.[/quote]

That sounds brilliant - and more or less what I was doing before I tried to do the one finger per fret and hurt my hand!

I've been watching Jack Bruce on youtube and sure he plays like this?

[thisnameistaken]

I think most people do play like this. I think the only people who are forced to stretch a lot are some metal bassists who have to keep up the widdly-widdlies with their guitarists. Not much you can do but stretch for that.

[fatback]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1025951' date='Nov 16 2010, 03:22 PM']I think most people do play like this. I think the only people who are forced to stretch a lot are some metal bassists who have to keep up the widdly-widdlies with their guitarists. Not much you can do but stretch for that.[/quote]

Something I neglected playing bass guitar was using open strings wherever possible.

On upright I'm having to make myself do that, and it's starting to transfer back to the guitar. I realise now, I was doing a lot of unnecessary stretching.

[SaxxyBass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1025951' date='Nov 16 2010, 03:22 PM']I think most people do play like this. I think the only people who are forced to stretch a lot are some metal bassists who have to keep up the widdly-widdlies with their guitarists. Not much you can do but stretch for that.[/quote]

Well I don't intend to play metal, so I don't have to do too much widdling with other genres then? I was a bit worried cos lots of stuff sounds complex to me widdly wise!


[quote name='fatback' post='1025961' date='Nov 16 2010, 03:29 PM']Something I neglected playing bass guitar was using open strings wherever possible.

On upright I'm having to make myself do that, and it's starting to transfer back to the guitar. I realise now, I was doing a lot of unnecessary stretching.[/quote]

Good point I'll bear that in mind

[louisthebass]

[quote name='SaxxyBass' post='1025223' date='Nov 15 2010, 09:23 PM']Hi Pete,

thanks that's comforting to know because I don't want to give up! I didn't know there were different lengths - I'm learning fast here! I had a little go on a mate's bass it was a Hohner Headless Jack Pro and it felt so light compared to mine and the neck felt really dainty and may possibly be for sale - do you know what scale they are?

I'm from near Chelmsford.




Hi louisthebass, Yes I've found some stuff on line recommending not anchoring your thumb and I'll do a google for the Simandl method. many thanks [/quote]

No worries, glad to be of assistance - I'm originally from Chelmo myself (lived on the Springfield Estate from 63 to 70 - very happy days)

Cheers,
louisthebass