Fender reality?

[GreeneKing]

I was chatting to a really nice guy yesterday who is a registered Fender dealer and who has amongst other things a 73 Jazz he loves dearly. He's also been around for a while i.e. even longer than moi.

He was relating tales of how he and his band mates sold Jazz's, P's, Strats and Tele's for little money not that long ago. He deals mainly in Japanese instruments nowadays and can't speak too highly of them in comparison to the US counterparts both new and old.

We were talking about the huge prices these older instruments fetch and about how that in the later 70's before retooling the worn out routers were producing neck pockets that you could nearly fit two necks into.

Then we have the defective poorly machined body that because of Leo Fender's penny scrimping business acumen becomes a 'desireable feature'.

Well everyone to their own, and I do find a nicely finished 'burst' Jazz or P with a tort plate as sexy as anyone but when some tired old relic appears and we get the 'omg' comments and the prices to go with it I too think 'omg' but for an entirely different reason.

I'm not saying there's owt wrong with this fascination with all things Vintage Fender but is it only me that thinks 'Fenderphiles' are victims of clever marketing?(2nd hand market).

Is it just me thinking along these lines or am I an isolated 'heathen' with no taste or appreciation? It should go without saying but I'd add this is my opinion I'm not stating fact or slagging anyone off etc, etc.

I actually did buy a Fender , a new Japanese P/J Aerodyne in white and it's just superb btw and I'd only swap it for a 'knackered' 1970's Jazz to sell the Jazz on and buy a (several) 'better' bass(es).

Peter

Edited January 4, 2008 by GreeneKing

[Musky]

No, you're not alone in thinking 70's Fenders aren't all they're cracked up to be.

I made a post along similar lines ages ago (maybe on BT/BW), and a lot of people just seemed to like the whole 'mojo' thing of an older bass. There are undoubtedly some great 70's vintage Fenders out there, but there's plenty from the bottom of the pile in the quality control department as well. I remain unconvinced that there was some kind of cut off date for decent vintage Fenders as well - the rather arbitrary dates of '73 or '75 are some that have been bandied about. I've seen auctions for late 60's models that have clearly had heels on the body wider than the neck, which doesn't bode well for Fender's quality control even at this early a date.

I'd buy one (in fact I have) - but not without playing it first, unless it came without the hefty price tag they usually command.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Musky

[wateroftyne]

I suspect many people who buy vintage Fenders of any kind have one eye on the investment potential, as well.

Me? I love 'em. I own four early 70's, that I love dearly. I've had a fistful of others in the past that I've really enjoyed. The odd boat anchor aside, I've yet to be burdened with a stinker.

Every one I have sold has held it's resale value perfectly well, and... they look cool.

Result!

[Old Horse Murphy]

Same as anything else Peter- good and bad.

I guess you need to try before you buy. I'm a fully paid-up Fender Head (I've even got the T-Shirt).

So far, I've been lucky with the 70's Fenders I've bought but have come across a few Pups too.

Like anything that's 30-odd years old I guess the strong survive and like to think that most of the dogs have fallen by the wayside.

Personally I don't really go for Fenders that look like they've had a hard life; I like something as pristine as I can get it- I do like the 70's basses in preference to the more modern Fenders as (to me) they feel a bit more individual. That said, I've owned a number of modern Fenders and have been delighted with them.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Old Horse Murphy

[OutToPlayJazz]

No, you're not alone - I've watched in fascination at a friend's shop when a guy has travelled down from Scotland to potentially buy a Precision that looks like it's been kicked around a carpark for a few hours! And what's more he was willing to pay up to £3k for it!!!

I'm of the shiny and new fraternity - I don't like or want old relic'd instruments. But there are a lot of people on here who do & all respect to them. If it's what they like, then fine. I love my Japanese Geddy for it's amazing fit & finish, and I am one who agrees with the old Japanese is best argument, but again, there are many who will disagree. Again, quite fine by me. My next Fender will be a Japanese model as well - A 51 Precision in butterscotch blonde.

Was only just re-stringing my TRB-6 earlier and admiring how lovely and shiny it is!

[chris_b]

There certainly is an irrational love of fenders, and the older the bass the greater the frenzy! It's a free world and there's no accounting for taste, but the one thing that irritates me more than anything else is the phrase "plenty of mojo". Please stop it!!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='chris_b' post='113682' date='Jan 4 2008, 06:41 PM']There certainly is an irrational love of fenders, and the older the bass the greater the frenzy! It's a free world and there's no accounting for taste, but the one thing that irritates me more than anything else is the phrase "plenty of mojo". Please stop it!![/quote]

Mine have got LOADS of mojo.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote]Mine have got LOADS of mojo.[/quote]

LMAO at Water of Tyne

On a more serious note, I love the pics of Water of Tyne's "Precision Wall" - He loves them & the sheer quality of the ones he's picked shows it.

Edited January 4, 2008 by OutToPlayJazz

[GreeneKing]

I've got a pair of Japanese Yamaha's (BB5000 and TRB5P) that have some 'mojo' and when they are made as well as that it does lend character imho

[birdy]

I think the closest analogy I have seen with vintage Fenders against new ones is related to cars. Most of todays cars are better built etc but many people still crave the old ones!

I have a 65 Jazz that is as good as anything else I have ever played with regards the tone and playability (which are both subjective) but as an instrument it certainly isn't worth anymore than a Sadowsky or Fodera. What you are paying for is obviously the rarity and collectability. For me its win win. I get something I enjoy now and it goes up in value hopefully. If it doesn't I have still enjoyed it.

Steve

[Rumble]

Personally, I love the mojo look. It tells a story just by looking at it. That said however, I'd really struggle to justify spending that sort of money on a bass when I've yet to find anything that betters one of the cheapest basses I've ever owned (Lakland JO5). Like birdy, if I had a little extra cash floating round I might be tempted from an investment point of view, but that's probably the only reason.

[Muppet]

It's the stuff you can't quite put your finger on that makes them, not the physical things themselves. Japanese models, no matter how good quality wise will never have it. They will always be Japanese. You can get a custom shop issue that feels and sounds like a 70s Fender and will be of much better physical quality but it still won't have it. It's a heart thing not a head thing and that's what makes them great.

[Old Horse Murphy]

[quote name='Muppet' post='113757' date='Jan 4 2008, 09:08 PM']It's the stuff you can't quite put your finger on that makes them, not the physical things themselves. Japanese models, no matter how good quality wise will never have it. They will always be Japanese. You can get a custom shop issue that feels and sounds like a 70s Fender and will be of much better physical quality but it still won't have it. It's a heart thing not a head thing and that's what makes them great.[/quote]

AMEN- Well said Sir

[Dood]

Look out.. Dood is posting his '67 alike ;o)




I agree with the OP, I am unlikely to buy a bass for investment value.. I just wanna play it ;o) - well.. in the case of this one ^^^ i certainly wouldn't pay 2k for it when it hangs on my wall lol!


(It's a very good example of a non-export CIJ - I love the TV era script and the pups aint bad either.)

[Dood]

oh... and the little sticker on the pickguard simply says 'touch me'. ;o)

[Musky]

[quote name='Muppet' post='113757' date='Jan 4 2008, 09:08 PM']It's the stuff you can't quite put your finger on that makes them, not the physical things themselves. Japanese models, no matter how good quality wise will never have it. They will always be Japanese. You can get a custom shop issue that feels and sounds like a 70s Fender and will be of much better physical quality but it still won't have it. It's a heart thing not a head thing and that's what makes them great.[/quote]

That sounds like Beedster's 'placebo effect'. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8436"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8436[/url]

Oh, and lovely looking bass there Dood.

[Muppet]

[quote name='Musky' post='113775' date='Jan 4 2008, 09:39 PM']That sounds like Beedster's 'placebo effect'. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8436"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8436[/url][/quote]

Absolutely, a lot of it is about how you 'feel' when owning or playing one, rather than the more tangible body routing or neck alignment.

[elom]

[quote name='dood' post='113767' date='Jan 4 2008, 09:25 PM']oh... and the little sticker on the pickguard simply says 'touch me'. ;o)[/quote]
A reminder of your days on tour with Sam Fox in the 80s perchance?

[Dood]

[quote name='elom' post='113848' date='Jan 4 2008, 11:27 PM']A reminder of your days on tour with Sam Fox in the 80s perchance?[/quote]


HA HA HA HA!!!!! You thought of that song... not me! ;o) However, yes.. if she stood far enough forward I could get a good swing at the back on her head with a few pounds of Ash.

[simon1964]

[quote name='Muppet' post='113757' date='Jan 4 2008, 09:08 PM']It's the stuff you can't quite put your finger on that makes them, not the physical things themselves. Japanese models, no matter how good quality wise will never have it. They will always be Japanese. You can get a custom shop issue that feels and sounds like a 70s Fender and will be of much better physical quality but it still won't have it. It's a heart thing not a head thing and that's what makes them great.[/quote]

+1. I love my Jap 70s P, but its not the real thing. Completely illogical, but a re-issue, however well made and however good it sounds, will never have the mojo of a genuine 70s Fender.

[rockinrayduke]

After attending and working a few guitar shows here in Texas I've long since given up any fantasy of owning another "vintage" bass. The prices have become completely insane unless you're independently wealthy, my neck hurt just from shaking my head at the pricetags. I've learned to be happy with reissues. I can make my own mojo.

Edited January 5, 2008 by rockinrayduke

[bassaussie]

Personally, I love old Fenders, and I've got the basses to prove it!! But I do agree that I think the whole mystique thing has gone too far. Let's be honest - there's some vintage dealers who are making a fortune out of the vintage market place, and they have no problems about driving the prices up on good quality pieces. As the good quality (or, should I say, the more desirable) stuff get's out of reach of the average buyer, then the lesser pieces become focussed upon, and, in turn, their prices go up. What irks me isn't so much people paying larger amounts for a nice late 70s instrument, it's when people go nuts over a piece that's been routed, refinished, and bastardised to death, and is still being labelled as a 60s or early 70s instrument. with a price to match.

I guess a person has to really pinpoint why they want an older instrument. If it's for investment, then playability isn't as much of an issue - it's all about originality, and having as few modifications as possible. But if it's to play, then the buyer has to look at what they're getting for their money, and if there isn't a modern alternative that's going to do the job just as well, or better, for the same, or less, money.

[Deep Thought]

I have a fascination with Vintage Fenders, but in the same way as elephants, very nice to look at but you wouldn't want to own one. I tend to regard a bass as a tool, a thing to do a job with, and I wouldn't be happy gigging with a pristine vintage Fender-I haven't been able to keep my '07 P in perfect condition despite the utmost care. It's picked up three or four minor dings and a bit of scratching on the back, and I've been ridiculously anal about looking after it. It'll soon reach the stage where I don't care any more and really start knocking it about. I'd hate to do that to an old one which are almost becoming bits of history now. I prefer to have a modern one where a bit of abuse isn't such a big deal-I'd hate to have a lovely pristine vintage bass which had survived 40 years intact, only to be knocked around and damaged by my cack-handedness. A similar situation exists with vintage flying jackets, a hobby I've been involved in for ten years now-many people are reluctant to wear 60-year-old WWII jackets on a regular basis, so the reproduction industry has evolved as people look for a repro that has the flavour of the old jackets without having to damage a historic original.
In terms of value I think Fender have a bit of the Harley-Davidson thing going-it either does it for you or it doesn't. If it doesn't you won't understand why people are daft enough to pay that sort of money, if it does no explanation is necessary. There are better ones out there that do the job far better for a lot less money, but they just aren't the same thing.

[peted]

I think this happens to anything which becomes 'finite' and collectable. Once the 70s finished, so did the production of 70s Fenders. There are enough of them around still to mean that the bassist with bottom-less pockets can travel the length of the country to buy one for £thousands£.

I can appreciate the 'hobby' or 'interest' that is collecting vintage or rare instruments but it's just not for me. I like the modern stuff which remains cheap new and even cheaper second hand

[Dood]

[quote name='Deep Thought' post='113924' date='Jan 5 2008, 10:05 AM']I have a fascination with Vintage Fenders, but in the same way as elephants, very nice to look at but you wouldn't want to own one. I tend to regard a bass as a tool, a thing to do a job with, and I wouldn't be happy gigging with a pristine vintage Fender-I haven't been able to keep my '07 P in perfect condition despite the utmost care. It's picked up three or four minor dings and a bit of scratching on the back, and I've been ridiculously anal about looking after it. It'll soon reach the stage where I don't care any more and really start knocking it about. I'd hate to do that to an old one which are almost becoming bits of history now. I prefer to have a modern one where a bit of abuse isn't such a big deal-I'd hate to have a lovely pristine vintage bass which had survived 40 years intact, only to be knocked around and damaged by my cack-handedness. A similar situation exists with vintage flying jackets, a hobby I've been involved in for ten years now-many people are reluctant to wear 60-year-old WWII jackets on a regular basis, so the reproduction industry has evolved as people look for a repro that has the flavour of the old jackets without having to damage a historic original.
In terms of value I think Fender have a bit of the Harley-Davidson thing going-it either does it for you or it doesn't. If it doesn't you won't understand why people are daft enough to pay that sort of money, if it does no explanation is necessary. There are better ones out there that do the job far better for a lot less money, but they just aren't the same thing.[/quote]

Excellent post a +1 here. You did a better job of explaining what I wanted to say!