Multi bass jams.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='silddx' post='998886' date='Oct 24 2010, 02:37 PM']... Life is all about tension ...[/quote]
So nice of you to say so Nigel.

Anyway, it's the JAM bit that worries me - most jams sound rubbish unless you're actually one of the players and even then it can sound fairly bad.

Just having two basses playing complementary parts or even doubling a line can work. The use of tic-tac bass in country music, for instance, with likely a Fender Precision and a muted Fender Bass VI or Danelectro doubling or complementing the line. Or this:




.. but, please, not the multi-bass jam.

[bartelby]

[quote name='Alfie' post='998985' date='Oct 24 2010, 04:24 PM']That's brilliant! Not sure that two bass players adds much to the song, as opposed to the performance.[/quote]


Man Or Astroman were amazing to watch live, even before they brought out the Tesla coil!

[skej21]

I would rather cheesegrate my own face off (slowly!) than have to listen to a bunch of bass players playing a self-indulgent, fret-wonking jam.

However, if we could find a way to get rid of guitards and replace them with a bassist who could fulfil the same functional role, I'd be happy with that!

Edited October 24, 2010 by skej21

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='998987' date='Oct 24 2010, 04:27 PM'].. but, please, not the multi-bass jam.[/quote]

[quote name='skej21' post='998990' date='Oct 24 2010, 04:30 PM']I would rather cheesegrate my own face off (slowly!) than have to listen to a bunch of bass players playing a self-indulgent, fret-wonking jam ...[/quote]
Exactly:

[arthurhenry]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='998815' date='Oct 24 2010, 01:21 PM']Why even make this thread? Were you drunk or on drugs? It serves no purpose but to be ignorant.

I'm not getting into a debate here, music is music and any can be beautiful or ugly. I've run jam nights where there have been multi bass jams and I've taken part in them, and in my experience where all parties involved are good musicians, they've all sounded excellent. Looks like we may have a variable here?..

Also, have you listened to 95% of Manring, Sheehan and Wooten's recorded output? Or just heard a few snippets, maybe a solo album here or there? This post makes me think you're just fishing for argument, which I can actually say I've been guilty of at times .

Two albums for anyone who still has doubts to put them to rest:

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/This-Bass-Could-Only-Talk/dp/B000025LOI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287922767&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/This-Bass-Could-On...2767&sr=1-1[/url]
-[/quote]


I made the post because I was interested to see if other bass players shared my opinion. I believe that's a valid reason to post on a bass discussion forum. I was drunk once, about 8 years ago, but have never taken drugs. I have heard 99% of Sheehan's recorded output and attended his clinics for 19 years. I have heard less of Wooten and Manring's output. I was specifically referring to the bass day type jam and perhaps should have made this clearer. Duets between two double basses can be great and some of the Wooten/Bailey stuff is nice too.
The thread seems to have served the purpose of starting a discussion about multi bass jams and our likes/dislikes thereof.

[skej21]

[quote name='arthurhenry' post='999024' date='Oct 24 2010, 05:05 PM']I made the post because I was interested to see if other bass players shared my opinion. I believe that's a valid reason to post on a bass discussion forum. I was drunk once, about 8 years ago, but have never taken drugs. I have heard 99% of Sheehan's recorded output and attended his clinics for 19 years. I have heard less of Wooten and Manring's output. I was specifically referring to the bass day type jam and perhaps should have made this clearer. Duets between two double basses can be great and some of the Wooten/Bailey stuff is nice too.
The thread seems to have served the purpose of starting a discussion about multi bass jams and our likes/dislikes thereof.[/quote]

I'm just suprised that you can attend 19 years worth of Sheenan clinics and listen to his entire output whilst sober. I'd have to have a good drink of whiskey, just to numb the pain of my bleeding ears!

[arthurhenry]

[quote name='skej21' post='999028' date='Oct 24 2010, 05:07 PM']I'm just suprised that you can attend 19 years worth of Sheenan clinics and listen to his entire output whilst sober. I'd have to have a good drink of whiskey, just to numb the pain of my bleeding ears![/quote]
Almost all of it is song based rock music with appropriate bass lines. The way he plays a simple 8th note line excites me far more than the fiddly stuff.

[Oscar South]

Yeah, Mr. Big are ace. Take Cover! [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIuicNwYBgA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIuicNwYBgA[/url]

[xilddx]

Fack me, Stanley, Victor and Marcus, in a "bass battle"?. Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I?

Oh Bollocks! I pressed play.

And was visited upon by a display of worthless, unmusical, miserable rubbish that does every bassist with a heart a disservice of biblical proportion. The utterly bovine yelps of appreciation from the audience makes me feel like the pursuit of a life in music to be a worthless endeavour.

I feel angry about that video, something music rarely makes me feel. All that BULLSHIT these f***ers say in interviews about studying, learning to be a perfectionist, learning to connect with life and humanity to better communicate your art and emotions, distilled into a pathetic display of par-boiled Dan Brown mechanical excrement that surely must excite only the most supine of intellects.

I'm appalled. Thanks for posting it ET, I have learned why I trust my ears, and why I ignore those who implore me to learn to sight read and learn theory.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='silddx' post='999057' date='Oct 24 2010, 05:27 PM']Fack me, Stanley, Victor and Marcus, in a "bass battle"?. Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I?

Oh Bollocks! I pressed play.

And was visited upon by a display of worthless, unmusical, miserable rubbish that does every bassist with a heart a disservice of biblical proportion. The utterly bovine yelps of appreciation from the audience makes me feel like the pursuit of a life in music to be a worthless endeavour.

I feel angry about that video, something music rarely makes me feel. All that BULLSHIT these f***ers say in interviews about studying, learning to be a perfectionist, learning to connect with life and humanity to better communicate your art and emotions, distilled into a pathetic display of par-boiled Dan Brown mechanical excrement that surely must excite only the most supine of intellects.

I'm appalled. Thanks for posting it ET, I have learned why I trust my ears, and why I ignore those who implore me to learn to sight read and learn theory.[/quote]
I shouldn't myself like to deny the possible value of reading and theory but I would like to ask 'Did you like Furtok and Stähle playing the Bottesini piece?'

[arthurhenry]

[quote name='silddx' post='998807' date='Oct 24 2010, 01:16 PM']Technically no, in practice mostly yes.

Anyone trying to make bass a lead instrument is, in my book, pretty deluded. It's just not an interesting sound, at least nowhere near as interesting as a saxophone, a guitar, or a piano. For me, the real glory of the great bass player is in rhythm and harmonisation. A bassist can make a vocal, horn or guitar melody sound immense in a way no other instrument is capable of, except perhaps a piano.

The problem lies in bassists with great technical facility and theoretical knowledge, coupled with a personality that requires them to demonstrate that facility. They normally replace another more suited instrument in an ensemble to play established complex jazz music, write music they feel is suitable for solo bass, or learn cello pieces and put them on youtube. In almost all cases it fails to stimulate on anything other than a technical level, and only other people who like technical facility seem to appreciate it. Even I am guilty of enjoying some of it, (but never Alain Caron ), but I am a bassist so of course I am going to. But I recognise it is simply novelty, a circus act.

The truly great bassists are the ones with great technical facility and theoretical knowledge who make composers' music sound richer and more musical, and excite the composer and the audience, even if it's subliminally. That is challenge enough for most musicians. I really believe a bassist has to know his place and purpose, otherwise learn the guitar or the trumpet for god's sake.

EDIT: I'm assuming in a multi-bass scenario, one of them will be a lead instrument.[/quote]

Perfectly put. I too, often get the feeling that some pf these players feel the need to show what they can do at every given oppurunity. They're unable to play more than a few bars of meat and potatoes bass playing just in case someone new has walked into the room and thinks that's all they can do.

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='999057' date='Oct 24 2010, 05:27 PM']I'm appalled. Thanks for posting it ET, I have learned why I trust my ears, and why I ignore those who implore me to learn to sight read and learn theory.[/quote]

Can I ask, how does learning to sight read/learn theory make you into a fret-wonking moron? I would just like to hear the opinion behind such a sweeping statement.

[EssentialTension]

How about this one:



I'd say it easily beats SMV (is that what they are called?) but doesn't beat Bottesini.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='999080' date='Oct 24 2010, 05:45 PM']Can I ask, how does learning to sight read/learn theory make you into a fret-wonking moron? I would just like to hear the opinion behind such a sweeping statement.[/quote]
No No No! I didn't say that!

I just have good ears, I trust them and the music I play and the bands I play with do not require that level of knowledge, only my personal music judgement. I like my musical choices and the only thing I was implying was that a musician can get to a point where they can only fulfil themselves by playing the sort of sh*t in that video. There is no outlet for their talent. There is no James Brown, no Frank Zappa, no great composer to challenge them and utilise their technical talent. That video demonstrated such a lack of integrity in those musicians, such immaturity, that anyone who has true musical values and immense knowledge of theory would probably be ashamed.

If I had that level of talent, I know I would need to do something with it, but I wouldn't want to end up like that and I know it's possible I might and I would have to kill myself

Edited for some clarity and so I don't sound like quite as much of an arsehole.

Edited October 24, 2010 by silddx

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='999086' date='Oct 24 2010, 05:56 PM']How about this one:



I'd say it easily beats SMV (is that what they are called?) but doesn't beat Bottesini.[/quote]

Maybe I'm projecting my own tastes a bit here but I think it's easier to find an emotional connection to the sound of the double bass than it is to bass guitar. Especially given that modern active bass guitar sound with ultra-bright roundwounds and the way the well-known soloists seem to attack each string like it just insulted their mother. I do despair when I hear these "greats" with tens of thousands of pounds worth of donated gear and they all make those same stark, shrill noises. I don't know why they all gravitate towards that sound.

The double bass just seems to have a more agreeable character to it. It's got a warmth and a humour to it, a humanity maybe. Fretless bass can be interesting in similar ways but it's a cold sound, to me, where the upright is often more homely and pleasant, or alternatively more stately and dramatic.

When I pick up a bass at home these days, 99% of the time it's the double bass. I can play the bass guitar to a much higher standard and all my gigs are currently on bass guitar but given the choice I play DB instead.

Edited October 24, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[xilddx]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='999104' date='Oct 24 2010, 06:14 PM']Maybe I'm projecting my own tastes a bit here but I think it's easier to find an emotional connection to the sound of the double bass than it is to bass guitar. Especially given that modern active bass guitar sound with ultra-bright roundwounds and the way the well-known soloists seem to attack each string like it just insulted their mother. I do despair when I hear these "greats" with tens of thousands of pounds worth of donated gear and they all make those same stark, shrill noises. I don't know why they all gravitate towards that sound.

The double bass just seems to have a more agreeable character to it. It's got a warmth and a humour to it, a humanity maybe. Fretless bass can be interesting in similar ways but it's a cold sound, to me, where the upright is often more homely and pleasant, or alternatively more stately and dramatic.

When I pick up a bass at home these days, 99% of the time it's the double bass. I can play the bass guitar to a much higher standard and all my gigs are currently on bass guitar but given the choice I play DB instead.[/quote]
I tend to agree with you there. The very fact you can't articulate a string bass with the same facility as an electric means you have to find "the music" to sound compelling.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='silddx' post='999087' date='Oct 24 2010, 05:58 PM']No No No! I didn't say that!

I just have good ears, I trust them and the music I play and the bands I play with do not require that level of knowledge, only my personal music judgement. I like my musical choices and the only thing I was implying was that a musician can get to a point where they can only fulfil themselves by playing the sort of sh*t in that video. There is no outlet for their talent. [b]There is no James Brown, no Frank Zappa, no great composer to challenge them[/b] and utilise their technical talent. That video demonstrated such a lack of integrity in those musicians, such immaturity, that anyone who has true musical values and immense knowledge of theory would probably be ashamed.

If I had that level of talent, I know I would need to do something with it, but I wouldn't want to end up like that and I know it's possible I might and I would have to kill myself

Edited for some clarity and so I don't sound like quite as much of an arsehole.[/quote]

Despite messing with some of this stuff from time to time but still on the banstand just wanting to be a bass player, the bit I have highlighted is something I've been saying since the first MM solo album. (Bass solo that is 'the sun don't lie, he did a vocal soul album prior to that)
These guys are great players but lack the compositional ability of the guys they are usually sidemen for, but worse the bile swilling music industry could not resist trying to capitalise on their popularity because they are KNOWN players.
Jaco I think is an exception some of his tunes are great, and bass players per se don't need to be excluded from compositional greatness, it's just that like many other aspects of the industry a market has been discovered and ruthlessly milked.
Don't blame any of them for accepting the work tho.

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='999117' date='Oct 24 2010, 06:22 PM']I tend to agree with you there. The very fact you can't articulate a string bass with the same facility as an electric means you have to find "the music" to sound compelling.[/quote]

I have to say that personally, this over-emotional and happy-clappy approach to bass (you have to find "the music" to sound compelling?!) just as disengaging and boring as the virtuosic fret-wonking morons...

[Prosebass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='999104' date='Oct 24 2010, 06:14 PM']Maybe I'm projecting my own tastes a bit here but I think it's easier to find an emotional connection to the sound of the double bass than it is to bass guitar. Especially given that modern active bass guitar sound with ultra-bright roundwounds and the way the well-known soloists seem to attack each string like it just insulted their mother. I do despair when I hear these "greats" with tens of thousands of pounds worth of donated gear and they all make those same stark, shrill noises. I don't know why they all gravitate towards that sound.

The double bass just seems to have a more agreeable character to it. It's got a warmth and a humour to it, a humanity maybe. Fretless bass can be interesting in similar ways but it's a cold sound, to me, where the upright is often more homely and pleasant, or alternatively more stately and dramatic.

When I pick up a bass at home these days, 99% of the time it's the double bass. I can play the bass guitar to a much higher standard and all my gigs are currently on bass guitar but given the choice I play DB instead.[/quote]

I would suggest what you are saying is that electric bass can be lacking in emotion ?
One of the reasons I gravitate with my listening towards bassists who can play with some.
I'm just a groove guy at heart. If I wanted to play lots of notes I would of learned to play keyboard....

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='silddx' post='999057' date='Oct 24 2010, 05:27 PM']Fack me, Stanley, Victor and Marcus, in a "bass battle"?. Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I? Shall I? Shan't I?

Oh Bollocks! I pressed play.

And was visited upon by a display of worthless, unmusical, miserable rubbish that does every bassist with a heart a disservice of biblical proportion. The utterly bovine yelps of appreciation from the audience makes me feel like the pursuit of a life in music to be a worthless endeavour.

I feel angry about that video, something music rarely makes me feel. All that BULLSHIT these f***ers say in interviews about studying, learning to be a perfectionist, learning to connect with life and humanity to better communicate your art and emotions, distilled into a pathetic display of par-boiled Dan Brown mechanical excrement that surely must excite only the most supine of intellects.

I'm appalled. Thanks for posting it ET, I have learned why I trust my ears, and why I ignore those who implore me to learn to sight read and learn theory.[/quote]

Er...didn't you like that then, Nige?

[Pete Academy]

I personally don't mind multi-bass stuff if it's done as SMV did on their album, where everyone had their sonic place in the track.

Stanley was one of the first players to use another bassist, due to his solo albums having the melody played on a tenor bass. Marcus used the keyboard player's synth bass live. Victor uses a 'backing' bassist. What's wrong with that?

A good example of two basses used to maximum effect is the much underrated Meshell, with David Dyson as main groover. Check out some stuff on Youtube, especially the live version of 'Boyfriend'. Dyson is cooking, but when Meshell plays, it never gets in the way.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='ahpook' post='998968' date='Oct 24 2010, 04:08 PM']oooh - pook likey [/quote]Mr Soar likey too.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='999121' date='Oct 24 2010, 06:27 PM']I have to say that personally, this over-emotional and happy-clappy approach to bass (you have to find "the music" to sound compelling?!) just as disengaging and boring as the virtuosic fret-wonking morons...[/quote]
Then you have not yet found the musician within yourself.

[Chris2112]

I think they can be pretty good, it all depends who is playing and also where they are playing. In a room with good acoustics where you're not just going to get a low frequency mush they can sound great.

I've always loved the first minute of this, particularly Kai's fretless lines:

[umph]

[quote name='ahpook' post='998968' date='Oct 24 2010, 04:08 PM']oooh - pook likey [/quote]

glad you like, one of the bands that inspired me to get into building effects etc.