Macca's Hofner on Jools Holland

[risingson]

I don't think it's possible for anyone to stress Paul McCartney and John Lennon's importance as two of the most important songwriters of all time, not even just of the 20th century, their music is the reason music exists as it does in it's current format today. There were other people who have also propelled popular music that I always think of, Brian Wilson in the U.S notably, but just no one as important culturally or musically as the Beatles. It's also only fair to include George Martin in all of this as well, I do believe the man to be a genius, not least of all from keeping all four of the band from killing each other.

[Doctor J]

Let's whittle this down to the facts... He wrote some of the best pop songs of all time and is a wonderfully melodic bassist who's pushing 70 and still rocks harder than most 20 year olds.

I'm not seeing the problem.

[wombatboter]

[quote name='Starless' post='1005262' date='Oct 29 2010, 01:53 PM']There is no point comparing Macca to any of the above mentioned bassists. Macca never gave a sh*t about 'bass as art-form', unlike the kind of pretentious twiddling heroes-of-bass mentioned above.

Macca was (still is and will be until he dies) a MUSICIAN and SONGWRITER. Musical instruments to him are the means to the end of a complete rendition of a song (remember those things with words and melodies?). He only ended up as the bass player because 'someone had to do it'. He has a very healthy disregard for strings or tone or technique - as long as the end product is fine that's all he cares about. His basslines are beautifully put together to compliment the complete composition and recording. And yet pseudo experts still insist on picking them out in isolation and comparing them to widdling, solo-ing, bass 'heroes'?? Eh, why? What is the point of that pray tell?

Back in my day at school (late 60's/ early 70's) there was always the playground 'look at me' merchant daring to be different. One tactic they employed was to profess to 'hate' the Beatles (or anything else that was incredibly popular). It looks like they grew up (or I should say, got older), had kids and the same 'look at me' DNA has been passed on through the generations and we see it now on Internet forums.

I'm not an Elvis fan, does nothing for me, but I can appreciate his impact and (continuing) influence on popular music. I can't therefore 'hate' Elvis.

For someone to say they 'hate' The Beatles just highlights their complete inability to appreciate popular music in its historical context - and that context includes the shock-horror revelation that bass guitar in 60's popular music really was almost an afterthought (records were mixed to sound good on a transistor radio after all).

Bad-mouthing McCartney because of his (68 year-old) face, or the fact that he might be right up himself, is just hilarious. Takes me right back to the playground...[/quote]

Very well said, 12 points from the Belgian jury (my life wouldn't have been the same without McCartney). Listening in the seventies to Mrs Vanderbilt I started to like that low bass-thing going on, bought one myself and so many years later I've found my way in the Belgian music scene, having loads of fun, along the way earned some money doing what I love the most and still I can listen to McCartney any time..His music has made my life "better" and richer.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1005965' date='Oct 30 2010, 01:38 AM']Whether McCartney is a good bass player and whether the Beatles wrote 'good' songs is a debate so covered in tiretracks as to be virtually worthless. And, in the end, it just comes down to personal taste.

The 'influence' thing is often seen as an issue of musicianship and absorption of licks, sounds, techniques. But there's so much more.

* They're responsible for the idea that bands could - and [i]should [/i]- 'progress'. Before the Beatles, bands were expected to last for a couple of years or so. They'd put out pretty much the same stuff across their brief career. The fact the Beatles' fame ensured they lasted for longer required that they had to periodically re-invent themselves. Thank the Beatles for Metallica refusing to lay down and die.

* The Beatles killed Tin Pan Alley. Today, everyone's a songwriter. Unfortunately.

* They moved beyond the idea of the Pop album as a collection of singles and filler. They used innovative studio recording techniques to go beyond 'song capture' and into the realm of audio creativity. It is the Beatles fault that we have 96 track desks and infinite channel capacity on DAW's. To the extent that recording live to two-track is seen as wildly radical.

* The Beatles acted as a bridgehead for the idea of Pop as Art. Without the Beatles, no psychedelia, no Floyd, Velvets, JAMC, Husker Du, no chinstroking rockers. Just big sh*t-eating smiles and waves to the audience.

* By virtue of their ubiquity and marketability, the Beatles opened the door to Pop merchandising, tat, spin-offs, stalkers and conspiracy theories.

* The Beatles absorbed and re-purposed significantly different musical forms - reggae, folk, psychedelia, blues, soul. In so doing they exposed musos and audiences alike to new sounds and textures. You could make a shaky case for the Beatles being indirectly responsible for the idea of sub-genres within pop music

* Without the Beatles there would have been no 'British Invasion' and no US exposure for bands like The Stones, Animals, Yardbirds. Muddy Waters would have spent the rest of his life doing cash in hand odd jobs and Blues Rock would not have been invented, so no bent note Les Paul Marshall Stackery.

* The irreverant, provocative intelligence of their public pronouncements raised the bar for musos everywhere. Simple anodyne comments like "Thanks to all our fans and my favourite colour is blue" gave way to arguments about spirituality, The Establishment, war and - er - Universal Love. Without the Beatles, no Bono, no Zappa and no Silddx.

* Philip Norman makes a convincing case for The Beatles as a major component in changing attitudes to authority, morals, sex and drugs. He also blames the Beatles for today's solipsistic Entitlement culture. Without the Beatles, chavs wouldn't exist and everyone would know their place, according to Mr Norman. And he may be right.

Now you could argue that lots of other people were beavering away putting this stuff together and you'd be correct. But the Beatles were the catalyst, the bridgehead and the force which propelled isolated, nascent practices and ideas into the mainstream.

So you don't have to like the Beatles - I don't much - to at least tip your hat to their influence on the landscape we inhabit on a daily basis.[/quote]
Wing Commander DelVar - requesting permission to copy /paste this the next time I'm on a non-musician forum & find myself embroiled in a dispute with some chundering dunderhead who insists the Beatles were "overrated", "pointless old people's music" and that "Oasis did it better". Like yourself & Mr Daz I am no fan, but it's impossible to overstate their importance & influence.

Jon.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='AndyTravis' post='1005978' date='Oct 30 2010, 02:00 AM']And for all the naysayers, if being a 'sh*t bass player' had netted me around a billion quid, i'm sure i'd skip my 'Advanced Bass Soling Techniques' lesson too - i'd have a private Jet to catch to my private Island in the sun or some other useless crap to be getting on with.

It's easier to throw sh*t at a bigger target.[/quote]
So true.

I put it down to envy. I only wish I could have achieved a small fraction of Macca's and The Beatles' mediocrity. I'd even have been prepared to "woooooo" my way through a few songs if it would have helped (let's see now, what is the [i]tiny[/i] percentage of songs where Macca actually does that?).

Respect to Skank for injecting a bit of objectiveness into the discussion though.

[Musicman20]

I have a lot of respect for Paul, simple as that. Ive never warmed to the Hofner bass, but the older I get, the more I like it!

[jezzaboy]

This post started out asking how much his bass is worth and did anyone try and swipe it and ends up as a character assasination/defence of the guy and his career.

Jez

[squire5]

You know I've often wondered to myself,when Sirmacca goes on tour,and brings all the associated gear and amps and all,does he ever sigh and say to himself "with all the beautiful bass gear available nowadays,all the amazing basses in the world,I have to use this cheap piece of c**p,because it's expected of me.I darn't go out there with a Sadowsky,or Fodera or hell,even a Fender.I hate the sound of this thing.Its flimsy and looks like an antique"

Or does he say,"Yay, my good old Hofner.Man I love this bass"?

On a different note,I thought I spied a big ole Vox amp in the backline,very like the one he used in his heyday.Wonder if he's still using that?

[flyfisher]

Maybe he thinks he could have been a better player or more successful if he hadn't been held back by that "[i]cheap piece of cr*p[/i]".
Still, too late now.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='jezzaboy' post='1006237' date='Oct 30 2010, 01:04 PM']This post started out asking how much his bass is worth and did anyone try and swipe it and ends up as a character assasination/defence of the guy and his career.

Jez[/quote]
The usual story then.

[grenadilla]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1288259484' post='1003486']

QUOTE (Happy Jack @ Oct 28 2010, 10:30 AM)
A subject much discussed in the days when I used to frequent various Beatles forums and Hofner Hounds.

If you put it in the context of other desirable instruments (as you did, above) then you come out with an answer in six figures ... somewhere between £100k and £900k. On principle, I'd guess about £250k.

BUT

That's not really the context, is it? Some may find this contentious (especially if they're under 40) but Macca's bass is, quite simply, the most valuable single instrument on the planet.

Whoah there, boy! Going over the top a bit, aren't we?

Nope.

The Beatles are the biggest thing ever to happen in popular music, and yes, I do remember Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, and the Bay City Rollers.

If you're aged 45-65 then you grew up listening to The Beatles, to bands copying The Beatles, and to bands heavily influenced by The Beatles. They weren't a pop group, they were the environment.

If you're aged under 45, then you grew up listening to your parents listening to The Beatles, and all your favourite bands have a massive debt to The Beatles.

And all of that applies not just in Britain, or the States, but worldwide.

There is NO other band or artist about whom that statement applies.

Lennon and Harrison were filmed and recorded playing loads of different guitars. Their early-60's Rickenbackers are probably the most iconic, but it's not particularly clear cut and most people have little idea which guitars were played on which tracks.

Macca is indelibly associated with just two basses, the Hofner and the Rickenbacker, both unique, both easily identified, both utterly iconic.

If either of them were put up for auction by Macca, you'd be attracting people like Bill Gates, Roman Abramovich, Sheikh Makhtoub, the Sultan of Brunei. The auction would become a big swinging dick contest, and the bass would sell for well over £1m. Just to make a point. I'm richer than they are.

It would end up in a bullet-proof glass case mounted on the wall of the main Reception at the Burg al'Arab in Dubai. Just another status symbol.

Hey ... you asked me!

... and thank you, I thought you'd have something to say on this subject.
[/quote]

The Hofner Sir Macca plays now is often assumed to be his first,bought in Hamburg for less than a Fender cost.How about the Hofner with " Cavern " pickup spacing? Didn't Paul play it first? I read it was restored around the time of Revolution and then stolen.{?} I think his 'backer recorded better.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='grenadilla' timestamp='1321314579' post='1437853']

The Hofner Sir Macca plays now is often assumed to be his first,bought in Hamburg for less than a Fender cost.How about the Hofner with " Cavern " pickup spacing? Didn't Paul play it first? I read it was restored around the time of Revolution and then stolen.{?} I think his 'backer recorded better.
[/quote]

Nope - it's well known to be his second Hofner, and equally well known that his first (the Cavern) was stolen and never recovered.

I don't think many would argue against the Ricky recording better than the Hofner.

[Wil]

I couldn't identify the sound of a ricky or a hofner if my life depended on it. What's used on Paperback Writer?

[Happy Jack]

"'Paperback Writer' was the first time the bass sound had been heard in all its excitement," said Beatles' engineer [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Emerick"][color="#0645ad"]Geoff Emerick[/color][/url] in Mark Lewisohn's book [i]The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions[/i]. "To get the loud bass sound, Paul played a different bass, a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickenbacker"][color="#0645ad"]Rickenbacker[/color][/url]. Then we boosted it further by using a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker"][color="#0645ad"]loudspeaker[/color][/url] as a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone"][color="#0645ad"]microphone[/color][/url]. We positioned it directly in front of the bass speaker and the moving diaphragm of the second speaker made the electric current."

Wikipaedia

[JTUK]

If the Hofner bass I saw the other day is anything to go by..it was the worst one in the shop in terms of action...and that was in a shop with more than a good few basses in it... try 40-50 and counting..???

Anyway, I didn't pick it up as I just can't be doing with trying to play something like that so couldn't really say how its sounds. Mind you, Macca's live sound on Hofners isn't good either, IMO..but that is another thing.

Surprisingly, the bass with the lowest looking action was a T-Bird of some sort.

Just sayin'....

[4 Strings]

[quote name='AndyTravis' timestamp='1288136767' post='1001942']
...

Watched it being played by the lad i sold it to last month, deep thumpy supportive bass.

Lot to be said for a pickup near the neck...
[/quote]

That's where I place the strap on mine

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1321363282' post='1438199']
"'Paperback Writer' was the first time the bass sound had been heard in all its excitement," said Beatles' engineer [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Emerick"][color=#0645ad]Geoff Emerick[/color][/url] in Mark Lewisohn's book [i]The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions[/i]. "To get the loud bass sound, Paul played a different bass, a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickenbacker"][color=#0645ad]Rickenbacker[/color][/url]. Then we boosted it further by using a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker"][color=#0645ad]loudspeaker[/color][/url] as a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone"][color=#0645ad]microphone[/color][/url]. We positioned it directly in front of the bass speaker and the moving diaphragm of the second speaker made the electric current."

Wikipaedia
[/quote]

Was he having a joke? This was an April fool trick by the old Radio Luxembourg when they asked all their listeners to shout into their radio speakers and they'd record the signal at their end.

If the speaker thing actually gives a signal worth amplifying I'm not sure it would be worth listening to when you think how much it differs from even a poor quality microphone. Of course I could be wrong but...

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321385285' post='1438605']
If the Hofner bass I saw the other day is anything to go by..it was the worst one in the shop in terms of action...and that was in a shop with more than a good few basses in it... try 40-50 and counting..???


[/quote]

All sorts of ways you can end up with an unfeasibly high action on a vintage Hofner, e.g.

1. The neck has moved due to the glue drying out, and is just beginning its "pen-knife" manoevre.
2. The neck has moved previously and been badly repaired, leaving it in permanently the wrong position.
3. The floating bridge has been fixed in place using double-sided tape ... raising the entire assembly by 2mm.
4. The floating bridge has never been "matched" to the curve of the archtop, the bridge is too high, the bass sounds complete crap.
5. Or, of course, it could just be a bad set-up.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='grenadilla' timestamp='1321314579' post='1437853']

The Hofner Sir Macca plays now is often assumed to be his first,bought in Hamburg for less than a Fender cost.How about the Hofner with " Cavern " pickup spacing? Didn't Paul play it first? I read it was restored around the time of Revolution and then stolen.{?} I think his 'backer recorded better.
[/quote]
I wasn't assuming it was the so-called Cavern bass, which was stolen and never recovered, it was the second.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1321396850' post='1438775']
All sorts of ways you can end up with an unfeasibly high action on a vintage Hofner, e.g.

1. The neck has moved due to the glue drying out, and is just beginning its "pen-knife" manoevre.
2. The neck has moved previously and been badly repaired, leaving it in permanently the wrong position.
3. The floating bridge has been fixed in place using double-sided tape ... raising the entire assembly by 2mm.
4. The floating bridge has never been "matched" to the curve of the archtop, the bridge is too high, the bass sounds complete crap.
5. Or, of course, it could just be a bad set-up.
[/quote]

It wasn't the only one... I really struggled to find a bass I wanted to play thru and demo an amp.
REALLY struggled.... and there were quite a few name basses in there

I knew I should have taken a set of allen keys...and I will definitely take my own basses up there next time.

[Hobbayne]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1321396360' post='1438767']
Was he having a joke? This was an April fool trick by the old Radio Luxembourg when they asked all their listeners to shout into their radio speakers and they'd record the signal at their end.

If the speaker thing actually gives a signal worth amplifying I'm not sure it would be worth listening to when you think how much it differs from even a poor quality microphone. Of course I could be wrong but...
[/quote]

Yes it is true, Its in this book of Beatle factoids
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Beatles-Recording-Sessions-1962-1970/dp/0600612074

[grenadilla]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1321396360' post='1438767']
Was he having a joke? This was an April fool trick by the old Radio Luxembourg when they asked all their listeners to shout into their radio speakers and they'd record the signal at their end.

If the speaker thing actually gives a signal worth amplifying I'm not sure it would be worth listening to when you think how much it differs from even a poor quality microphone. Of course I could be wrong but...
[/quote]

[grenadilla]

A speaker used as a microphone will work, sort of. It will pick up bass frequencies best in a boomy way. The output will be so great it can overload the input on the mixer. I think " Rain " was recorded at the same time as " Paperback Writer ". The highest notes are plenty bassey!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1321396360' post='1438767']
Was he having a joke? This was an April fool trick by the old Radio Luxembourg when they asked all their listeners to shout into their radio speakers and they'd record the signal at their end.

If the speaker thing actually gives a signal worth amplifying I'm not sure it would be worth listening to when you think how much it differs from even a poor quality microphone. Of course I could be wrong but...
[/quote]

a way to build a microphone is a diaphragm that vibrates as sound hits it and moves back and forth with a magnet inducing a current in a coil of wire.
a way to build a speaker is a diaphragm that vibrates as a current put through a coil of wire moves the magnet.

same thing but backward, the same as a electric generator is effectively the same as an electric motor, just used backwards.

[grenadilla]

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1288350921' post='1005015']

QUOTE (oldslapper @ Oct 29 2010, 12:15 PM)
Cool, didn't know he used Ashdown?



Looks like it.
[/quote] The Ashdown bass amp is for the other guys to use when Paul plays guitar or piano. Paul stays traditional with Mesa Boogie tube amps (in a rack ) and two 215 cabinets. One of these Mesa cabinets has a midrange driver.