Rhythm... what a difference!

[Thurbs]

After picking up a bass in January I have been in a few rock bands for the last 6 months, but only ever had one guitarist and myself (bassist) (plus the usual singer & drummer).

We had a new guy join us last night playing rhythm and I was surprised by the difference! Before when playing my part in any song, my contribution was obvious to the sound. Adding a 3rd guitar really fills out the band well. I could hear the layers developing and building more and more as we got tight together.

During one song I wondered away from the band to hear the sound as a whole, rather than just me and the drummer (which is what I usually hear). The bass blended in to the background much more than I was expecting. I really understand now what musicians mean when the bass is all about the feel and tone, rather than the sound its self.

So in short, I now get my role in a 5 piece band much more than I did before last night. Does all that make sense?

[Low End Bee]

Other way round for me.

Once we went from a quartet to a trio I could finally hear everything and get some dynamics going.

Mind you we had a terrible constant strummer with little rhythm on 2nd guitar so that didn't help.

[thunderbird13]

I get what your saying - I much prefer playing with 2 guitars as it does give the music more texture and that gives me more freedom since things seem more "in place "

[chris_b]

If you're learning I guess that a second guitar gives you more "stuff" to fill in the sound but I've spent years playing in guitar trio's and much prefer the space.

It's critical that the bass and drums lock, and I can do that, but I find that getting 2 guitarists to lock is almost impossible.

[lojo]

If your in a band where you have 2 guitar players who are not competing too much and both are more interested in supporting the sound, then you are lucky and have something special

[thisnameistaken]

If my band got another guitarist I would have to kill one of them.

[Thurbs]

[quote name='lojo' post='1002361' date='Oct 27 2010, 12:58 PM']If your in a band where you have 2 guitar players who are not competing too much and both are more interested in supporting the sound, then you are lucky and have something special[/quote]We are all pretty new to this game, hence haven't had too much time to build enormous egos!

I completely understand where others are coming from. The other band I am in is just a trio and the space is definitely there to fill. I find myself naturally doing little runs or improvised sections, especially on those 4 cord root note songs like U2 seem so partial to. With the 5 piece, there is no need as the bass just gives it an extra feel or soul (if I could be so pompous).

As it was my first time playing in a 5 piece, I thought I would share my revelation...

If I really want space, Jazz is definitely my next musical progression from the modern rock stuff I am in to now. My teacher is a massive Jazz head and keeps dropping in Miles Davis references all the time...

[MacDaddy]

in the last 5 piece i was in the bass wasn't really noticeable until it wasn't there. Then it became obvious something vital was missing.

[Lozz196]

I find that when there are 2 guitars, the bass takes a far different role than with only 1 gtr, as the OP noticed.

Down to individual opinion which you prefer.

Personally, I like the setup with the bass following the drums, nice steady rhythm, then two guitars playing individual riffs, like the Stones - weaving as Keef puts it. Few off-beat chords, one barring, other open/arpeggio-ing, makes nice textures, to which if the bass is widdling like mad, it thorws it all out too much. Nice n steady, let the glory-boys have their glory.

[Twigman]

We have a 5 piece: voice/guitar/drums/bass/keys......there is always in my mind a struggle to give space to each other.

We're currently writing our next album and at a session on sunday the singer came in with this demo he'd made, gave out his parts for guitar/keys/bass/drums and we started to jam this new idea. After a few times through I started to leave great chunks of 'his' bass line out and also playing something 'more bass like' as we always do when we're playing with new ideas...he got a little upset until i pointed out to him that the bit I missed out was already (and more suitably) being played in the guitar part and that I was giving space to the other players....it actually sounded a lot better like this - and so the song evolves.

It's not what you play but what you don't play that counts.

[TimR]

Its all in the arrangement.

If you can find 2 guitarists who understand this then you are on to a winner.

I've been playing in a 5 piece for just over a year now and have managed to get them to tweak almost every song in their/our repertoire so that they're not both chugging away at the same chords with (almost ) the same rhythm.

If the guitarists don't get the fact that even though they're playing the same instrument they're are supposed to be playing different parts then you have a hard job. Even harder if you find one of them is also trying to add bass notes to their chords to "fatten" up the sound.

I've played in trios and all sorts of combinations up to nine piece bands and a large 70 piece concert band with 12+ parts.

It's the same whether it's a three piece or a twenty-three piece: If the other musicians are not listening to each other it's not a band, its a group of soloists.

[the_skezz]

I prefer it with one guitar, lets the bass have a bit more presence and gives me more room to maneuver under it.

I'm a showoff though

[bartelby]

I'm in a band with just one guitarist. Some times I'd like a second one to pop in for a few bars then bugger off again.

[Marvin]

I may be talking rubbish but it's a bit harder work with only one guitarist. People can actually hear you and with my playing that's the last thing people need. Best for me if I'm hidden a little.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1002733' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:19 PM']....I may be talking rubbish but it's a bit harder work with only one guitarist. People can actually hear you and with my playing that's the last thing people need. Best for me if I'm hidden a little....[/quote]
You've mainly got to work with the drummer. The number of people who are bolted on the front of the rhythm section doesn't change how that works. So a 3 or 10 piece band shouldn't make any difference to the bass. Then it's everyone else's job to work with you.

It's my objective to push the rhythm section forward in the band mix. I know every element is important but the groove “top trumps” the rest of the band in my opinion.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='bartelby' post='1002729' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:17 PM']I'm in a band with just one guitarist. Some times I'd like a second one to pop in for a few bars then bugger off again.[/quote]



Our trombonist just chuffed off to Banbury of all places, so we're trying to come up with ideas to replace him. We're currently drums, bass, guitar, keys + trumpet (one instrumentalist) and three voices, we've thought about a second guitarist or another trombonist or whatever but I think what we'll end up with is a brass player who can do something else, whether that's guitar or percussion or keys or voice I don't know, but it'll be someone who can provide some variety, not just a second guitar on every song or a trombonist standing idle in the verses or whatever. If we had two full-time guitarists I think we would get very rocky very quickly and I'm not really a big fan of rock music, so I would probably move on I think.

[TimR]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1002733' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:19 PM']I may be talking rubbish but it's a bit harder work with only one guitarist. People can actually hear you and with my playing that's the last thing people need. Best for me if I'm hidden a little.[/quote]

Well its actually a lot easier because you only have to listen to two people. It may be harder in the respect that you may have to play more but that's not always true. There are a lot of bass players who play far too much in an effort to fill sonic space that doesn't actually need to be filled.

Quality over quantity every time.

[TimR]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1002767' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:36 PM']You've mainly got to work with the drummer. The number of people who are bolted on the front of the rhythm section doesn't change how that works. So a 3 or 10 piece band shouldn't make any difference to the bass. Then it's everyone else's job to work with you.

It's my objective to push the rhythm section forward in the band mix. I know every element is important but the groove “top trumps” the rest of the band in my opinion.[/quote]

I think if you play the same way with 3 as you do with 10 then you're definitely missing something musically. In a 3 piece you'll often need to add to the harmony as well not just stick to the bass and groove. If you try to add to harmony in a 10 piece you're going to get fed up when no one can hear your bass line or the keyboard player appears to be stamping all over your line.

Edited October 27, 2010 by TimR

[chris_b]

[quote name='TimR' post='1002841' date='Oct 27 2010, 06:40 PM']....I think if you play the same way with 3 as you do with 10 then you're definitely missing something musically. In a 3 piece you'll often need to add to the harmony as well not just stick to the bass and groove. If you try to add to harmony in a 10 piece you're going to get fed up when no one can hear your bass line or the keyboard player appears to be stamping all over your line....[/quote]
I meant that what you play can change but how you play shouldn't need to. You always have to play the right stuff, but harmony can be part of the groove.

Kenny Gradney doesn't alter what he plays if Little Feat add the TOP horns and Francis Rocco Prestia plays exactly the same in TOP as he does on his solo album, which hardly has any horns on at all. Duck Dunn's style doesn't change when he's in the MG's or behind the full Stax show. Tommy Shannon just grooves behind Stevie Ray Vaughn.

As you said, it really is a case of "quality over quantity every time".

[TimR]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1002873' date='Oct 27 2010, 07:04 PM']I meant that what you play can change but how you play shouldn't need to. You always have to play the right stuff, but harmony can be part of the groove.

Kenny Gradney doesn't alter what he plays if Little Feat add the TOP horns and Francis Rocco Prestia plays exactly the same in TOP as he does on his solo album, which hardly has any horns on at all. Duck Dunn's style doesn't change when he's in the MG's or behind the full Stax show. Tommy Shannon just grooves behind Stevie Ray Vaughn.

As you said, it really is a case of "quality over quantity every time".[/quote]

In those cases they're playing mainly groove orientated funk. Where the guitars, keys and brass are playing padding and the drums and bass are driving the band.

It's all in the arrangement and different genres require different approaches. We find in a 5 piece that it is not impossible to play a pop tune that is originally played by a three piece with an additional guitar, the extra guitar just has to be careful what they play and the bass can still play the original bass line in most tunes. I think where it gets difficult is when you go the other way. What happens when you play a tune in a three piece that is well known as a big band (7+) piece.

As the OP suggests, it's really good to play in lots of different scenarios and use your ears so that you don't get into a fixed mind set of what the bass player is and does.

[chris_b]

[quote name='TimR' post='1003601' date='Oct 28 2010, 12:17 PM']....What happens when you play a tune in a three piece that is well known as a big band (7+) piece....[/quote]
I'll let you know.

One of my projects for next year is a bass, guitar and vocalist trio, covering just this sort of thing. We [i]will[/i] make it work!

[mep]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1002401' date='Oct 27 2010, 01:25 PM']If my band got another guitarist I would have to kill one of them.[/quote]

I prefer playing in a Trio. In our band the guitarist will not entertain another guitarist. There is not enough room in the sonic landscape for a 2nd guitar.

[Adrenochrome]

I'm happy to do either
But having 2 dedicated guitarists often causes problems IME with volume levels, overplaying etc. I've really enjoyed playing in 4-pieces where the singer plays a bit of guitar - you never seem to have the same guitarist-ego problems then.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1002767' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:36 PM']You've mainly got to work with the drummer. The number of people who are bolted on the front of the rhythm section doesn't change how that works. So a 3 or 10 piece band shouldn't make any difference to the bass. Then it's everyone else's job to work with you.[/quote]

I had the great pleasure of working with 2 guitarists, neither of whom played a single solo in a single song, or even assumed the roles of "lead" and "rhythm". They had their own thing going on, which allowed me to slot in and play lines which harmonised with both. We had an amazing frontman, but a drummer who always seemed to lag a little, and you could always hear me emphasizing beat "1" (rock band) to try and drag him into line with the rest of us.

I am struggling a bit in my current 4-piece (power trio plus vox) in that there isn't much room to manoeuvre. I have to hold the rhythm lines while the guitarist solos, and lock back in for the verses and choruses. Great drummer, though. Solid, never too flashy, and a nice guy.

Is it odd that I find being in a 3-piece more claustrophobic?

[lowhand_mike]

just joined back up with the 5 peice i used to be in, and i forgot just how little one of the 2 guitarists do, i mean hes ok but he does the same thing all the time, strum!!! fortunately neither of them like playing too loud which means i get heard and hold the thing together. geuss im in an odd situation there
playing in a covers band you do get to see how you fit in the mix and how hold things down. it does however sound odd when the rhythm guitar is missing but you dont really notice it when its there just when its gone.