Do I need to read music

[aceuggy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004279' date='Oct 28 2010, 07:53 PM']Depends on the band.

It's a bit like saying do I need carpentry skills to work on a building site.

You haven't really said what sort of music you want to play in a band. If it's pop, rock, blues or whatever, the answer is normally no, you don't need to read music, you will learn the music by ear.[/quote]

The answer to that is probably rock and blues.

[xilddx]

Thinking a bit about this, it's a common question and I used to be quite paranoid when i was starting out about whether I would need to sight read.

Much more important things to consider if you want to be in a band are:

Will I ENJOY being in this band?
Do I have reliable equipment which I know how to use?
Do I have a plan for when a string breaks or my sound cuts out?
Do I have/need an active DI box (SansAmp etc.) for emergencies?
Can I learn songs as quickly and as accurately as the other band members?
Do I need a form of reliable transport?
Do I understand, and can commit to, the level of time and effort expected by this band?
Am I a reliable person with a professional attitude?
Am I a nice person to be around, diplomatic, open minded, and know when to shut the f*** up?
Can I accept that bands are not always democratic?
Am I prepared for this band to eat into my time and financial resources?

[xilddx]

[quote name='aceuggy' post='1004305' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:08 PM']The answer to that is probably rock and blues.[/quote]
Most rock and blues bands are not readers, so 95% of the time you'll be fine.

Concentrate on the questions above

[Wil]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004317' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:15 PM']Thinking a bit about this, it's a common question and I used to be quite paranoid when i was starting out about whether I would need to sight read.

Much more important things to consider if you want to be in a band are:

Will I ENJOY being in this band?
Do I have reliable equipment which I know how to use?
Do I have a plan for when a string breaks or my sound cuts out?
Do I have/need an active DI box (SansAmp etc.) for emergencies?
Can I learn songs as quickly and as accurately as the other band members?
Do I need a form of reliable transport?
Do I understand, and can commit to, the level of time and effort expected by this band?
Am I a reliable person with a professional attitude?
Am I a nice person to be around, diplomatic, open minded, and know when to shut the f*** up?
Can I accept that bands are not always democratic?
Am I prepared for this band to eat into my time and financial resources?[/quote]

Great post.

[JTUK]

Notes on the fretboard are a basic...

To be able to cope with a lot of different enviroments you really need to be able to converse with the guys you are playing with.
If you play with guys all in the same boat then you can devise a system or just work through which can take its time. but once you involve a few different situiations, you need to be as conversant as possible.
A few universal systems just speeds things up so much.

You would have to have very very good ears to be able to follow a song or chord sequence in real time and get away with it and it wouldn't work at a gig.

Chord charts or pads and dots make it so much easier... and if you have good ears to hear intervals you still need to know the tune to pre-empt where the song will go.

There are so many things you can do to make it easier on yourself.

[Jerry_B]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004245' date='Oct 28 2010, 07:31 PM']God, I've been playing for 30 years and other than the first five frets on the E and A strings, I have to work out what the notes are called. But I can improvise over stuff reasonably well and after a good while your fingers kind of develop eyes, as Steve Vai once said. You know what the notes are going to sound like before you hit them. I can usually sing a melody in my head and more or less play it straight away.

I made a nice spice rack last year with my carpentry skills [/quote]

+1 - yep, very good point! With practice your brain and fingers synch and you almost instinctively know which fret to play on when you hear what someone else is playing. I've been playing bass for 22 years - all I know is the name of the strings. I never know what I'm playing in terms of what fret fret = any given note. I've always played by ear, but I understand that not everyone gets that as a concept when they first start playing. That said, I also know musicians who can't play anything without reading it as music or tabs first - they find it pretty much impossible to play by ear, which does seem weird to me but horses for courses...

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1004335' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:32 PM']Notes on the fretboard are a basic...

To be able to cope with a lot of different enviroments you really need to be able to converse with the guys you are playing with.
If you play with guys all in the same boat then you can devise a system or just work through which can take its time. but once you involve a few different situiations, you need to be as conversant as possible.
A few universal systems just speeds things up so much.

You would have to have very very good ears to be able to follow a song or chord sequence in real time and get away with it and it wouldn't work at a gig.

Chord charts or pads and dots make it so much easier... and if you have good ears to hear intervals you still need to know the tune to pre-empt where the song will go.

There are so many things you can do to make it easier on yourself.[/quote]
To me, this is the sort of stuff they tell you so you get paranoid and sign up for a Contemporary Music Performance Degree at BassTech. This is so common these days, and I find it very depressing.

Most of the rock and pop bands we like just started playing as teenagers and got in bands, made their mistakes, learned by ear, made up songs, refined them, continued that process and made more and more albums. There's nothing wrong with this approach. Can you imagine Black Sabbath sitting around, jerkily scribbling expression marks on scores? No. Reading music is not necessarily making things easier, sometimes it can be a burden. It is a tool, and as such it is only useful in certain situations.

You don't have to be able to play all styles and read music to be a good musician, in a good band, ENJOYING your music making. You have to do what is appropriate for your individual aims and objectives. If they change, your need for tools will also, and by hook or by crook you will acquire them. My band leader Kit Richardson felt compelled to write music when she was young and at school. She had been excluded from music classes but she used to break in to the music room after school and learned music and practised piano on her own, until she got caught. They then recognised her ability and tutored her after hours. She can score all sorts of instruments and plays piano rather well. She's got a great ear for a hook and composition in general. She creates great music and sings her heart out. Music is a compulsion, and your heart should rule your head in these matters.

[aceuggy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004317' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:15 PM']Thinking a bit about this, it's a common question and I used to be quite paranoid when i was starting out about whether I would need to sight read.

Much more important things to consider if you want to be in a band are:

Will I ENJOY being in this band?
Do I have reliable equipment which I know how to use?
Do I have a plan for when a string breaks or my sound cuts out?
Do I have/need an active DI box (SansAmp etc.) for emergencies?
Can I learn songs as quickly and as accurately as the other band members?
Do I need a form of reliable transport?
Do I understand, and can commit to, the level of time and effort expected by this band?
Am I a reliable person with a professional attitude?
Am I a nice person to be around, diplomatic, open minded, and know when to shut the f*** up?
Can I accept that bands are not always democratic?
Am I prepared for this band to eat into my time and financial resources?[/quote]

Feck this is getting complicated!! But can answer in the affirmative for most of this. I can play along to stuff I listen to after getting the gist from tab. Surely it would be the same playing in a band. Once we have decided what we are gong to play, that's what rehearsals are for, right?

[lojo]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004245' date='Oct 28 2010, 07:31 PM']God, I've been playing for 30 years and other than the first five frets on the E and A strings, I have to work out what the notes are called. But I can improvise over stuff reasonably well and after a good while your fingers kind of develop eyes, as Steve Vai once said. You know what the notes are going to sound like before you hit them. I can usually sing a melody in my head and more or less play it straight away.

I made a nice spice rack last year with my carpentry skills [/quote]

My knowing where what the frets are came from years of jamming, not study, but they have now found their way into my memory, so what i was trying to say is if the OP is going to study and not just let it happen, like us, then he may as well learn it all

I think we are all saying the same thing, obviously the answer is NO to the original question

There are extremes, someone who can play amazingly and follow without delay something they hear and without any theory at all, and those who can read anything real time, but could not play a note without a sheet, or improvise at all (Ive played with a lot of keyboard players like this)

BTW, I am a carpenter by trade

[xilddx]

[quote name='aceuggy' post='1004365' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:53 PM']Feck this is getting complicated!! But can answer in the affirmative for most of this. I can play along to stuff I listen to after getting the gist from tab. Surely it would be the same playing in a band. Once we have decided what we are gong to play, that's what rehearsals are for, right?[/quote]


It's really not all that complicated.

And from your post, it sounds like you have the right attitude and you know exactly what rehearsals are for! The only difference is that recorded music doesn't make mistakes, bands often do, and you must not let someone else's mistake throw you and cause you to make a mistake as a result. Know the arrangements very well so the rest of you can guide the person who has made the mistake back into the song, then it becomes less likely for them to make that mistake again.

[lojo]

[quote name='aceuggy' post='1004365' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:53 PM']Feck this is getting complicated!! But can answer in the affirmative for most of this. I can play along to stuff I listen to after getting the gist from tab. Surely it would be the same playing in a band. Once we have decided what we are gong to play, that's what rehearsals are for, right?[/quote]

yep, rehearsals for covers at least, if you know the lines, its about starts and endings also

the list silddx wrote is good

[JTUK]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004362' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:51 PM']To me, this is the sort of stuff they tell you so you get paranoid and sign up for a Contemporary Music Performance Degree at BassTech. This is so common these days, and I find it very depressing.

Most of the rock and pop bands we like just started playing as teenagers and got in bands, made their mistakes, learned by ear, made up songs, refined them, continued that process and made more and more albums. There's nothing wrong with this approach. Can you imagine Black Sabbath sitting around, jerkily scribbling expression marks on scores? No. Reading music is not necessarily making things easier, sometimes it can be a burden. It is a tool, and as such it is only useful in certain situations.

You don't have to be able to play all styles and read music to be a good musician, in a good band, ENJOYING your music making. You have to do what is appropriate for your individual aims and objectives. If they change, your need for tools will also, and by hook or by crook you will acquire them. My band leader Kit Richardson felt compelled to write music when she was young and at school. She had been excluded from music classes but she used to break in to the music room after school and learned music and practised piano on her own, until she got caught. They then recognised her ability and tutored her after hours. She can score all sorts of instruments and plays piano rather well. She's got a great ear for a hook and composition in general. She creates great music and sings her heart out. Music is a compulsion, and your heart should rule your head in these matters.[/quote]

That is fine...until you walk onto a gig and meet the guys for the first time. They throw a set list at you and a pad and expect you to make sense of it. If your music vocabulary is limited then chances are your gig choices are as well as you don't get too many chances to stuff up...Once would probably be enough.

If you don't work in these situations or want to, then as long as you can communicate well enough within the group situation you are in, then ok..it is when or if you step outside of it, that the problems comes..and then it could be too late..you have blown that avenue.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1004399' date='Oct 28 2010, 09:23 PM']That is fine...until you walk onto a gig and meet the guys for the first time. They throw a set list at you and a pad and expect you to make sense of it. If your music vocabulary is limited then chances are your gig choices are as well as you don't get too many chances to stuff up...Once would probably be enough.

If you don't work in these situations or want to, then as long as you can communicate well enough within the group situation you are in, then ok..it is when or if you step outside of it, that the problems comes..and then it could be too late..you have blown that avenue.[/quote]
The whole wold is full of situations you can step outside of. You can't be prepared for all of them.

And again, it sounds like a BassTech ad.

If you really have this attitude to life, you're better off learning Karate mate.

[Mog]

I'd say learn how to read music. Sight reading is one of the finest tools you'll have as a musician. Theres nothing wrong with tab, in fact I use that more often than sheet music but theres always a chance you might be in a situation where you'll need the ability. As for practicing or not using aspect its easy to walk into any ol music store and purchace a score for £1. Tab books are usually £10 - £20.
I'm of the view that musicians (including guitarists ) should always be looking to improve somehow. You may never need slap or tapping but it doesn't mean you shouldn't learn and practice the techniques.

[JTUK]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004406' date='Oct 28 2010, 09:31 PM']The whole wold is full of situations you can step outside of. You can't be prepared for all of them.

And again, it sounds like a BassTech ad.

If you really have this attitude to life, you're better off learning Karate mate.[/quote]


What a ridiculous thing to say... we are talking about being able to converse in musical circles.

If you can communicate, you meet a lot of people in musical situations, if you can't you don't get asked back ..even if you get asked in the first place. Your hard earned reputation is flattened and you get a complete roasting into the bargain which is likely to make you feel pretty bad and you mighty have let a few people down. Many people in the audience don't hear the music until it goes wrong and the bass player has trashed the trumpet solo part with a series of bum noteas and bass palyers don't have to the option of sitting out the song or parts of it and if someone calls a quick chord change or sequence, you can't be flapping in the air for the notes.

I am just saying that the more musically conversant a player one is, the more situations they can cover.
that doesn't make it the be-all and end-all musically by any means but it widens your scope as a player.

If someone chooses to close off these paths, then that is down to them.

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004362' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:51 PM']Reading music is not necessarily making things easier, sometimes it can be a burden. It is a tool, and as such it is only useful in certain situations.[/quote]

Bullshit.

Yes reading is a tool,but it is [u]never[/u] a burden. The only people who ever say that are those who cannot read.


Back to the OP.... Learning the notes on the 'board ,I believe,is basic and vital. I would suggest learning the fingerboard in conjunction
with the notes on the stave. It's not really difficult if you do them both together,and like I said earlier,it will open up a whole
world of material that isn't available to you now.
Of course you should train your ear as well,but if you can do both you will have a distinct advantage.

[skej21]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1004428' date='Oct 28 2010, 09:51 PM']What a ridiculous thing to say... we are talking about being able to converse in musical circles.[/quote]

Totally agree. At least your argument (JTUK) makes sense, because you're encouraging a fellow bassist to try and broaden skills so that they can pick and choose the gigs they play.

As for this "bass tech advert" nonsense. It seems to me that Sliddx cannot have a valid opinion, having never learnt to sight read himself.

I think that knocking such a valuable skill, just because you haven't acquired it is more of a sin than trying to explain to a fellow bass player what a fantastic opportunity it is to broaden your musical horizons (and expand the musical circles you work within)

It's funny how only the bassists who can't sightread try to discourage learning it...

Edited October 28, 2010 by skej21

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='skej21' post='1004446' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:02 PM']It seems to me that Sliddx cannot have a valid opinion, having never learnt to sight read himself.[/quote]

That's no better an argument than saying JTUK can't have a valid opinion because he doesn't know what it's like to not be able to read music.

I can appreciate that for musicians involved in some styles of music or musicians for whom music is a full-time job, it's essential to be able to read, but 99% of gigging guitar and bass players cannot read a note and have never been required to. So for them - unless they just had a personal desire to learn for their own satisfaction - it would be a complete waste of their time.

In response to your last line: I would never discourage anyone from learning any new skill, but the thread starter asked if it was essential ("Do I [i]need[/i] to read music") and the answer, whether you like it or not, is "No".

Edited October 28, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[stingrayPete1977]

I think this is getting a bit ahead of itself and as predicted will turn into the who can and cant read the dots (Again!).

Top and bottom is the OP is more likely to be looking to join/form a band with some like minded people of a similar standard or where some are prepared to be patient (they do exist) rather than looking to bump Dave Swift off the Hootananny!

Learn the basic notes up to the fifth fret so you can get to them asap when someone shouts them out and get out there and enjoy it. Maybe try a local jam night to get the hang of it, There is nothing like a 12 bar in A, Then one in E finished off with a shuffle in G to learn them notes we all keep going on about plus there is a good chance of meeting your potential band or band members amongst them too?

Edited October 28, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[XB26354]

Replying to the OP?
I don't know. Do you need to read music?

[skej21]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1004460' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:13 PM']That's no better an argument than saying JTUK can't have a valid opinion because he doesn't know what it's like to not be able to read music.

I can appreciate that for musicians involved in some styles of music or musicians for whom music is a full-time job, it's essential to be able to read, but 99% of gigging guitar and bass players cannot read a note and have never been required to. So for them - unless they just had a personal desire to learn for their own satisfaction - it would be a complete waste of their time.[/quote]

What's the difference between reading tablature to learn a set of covers for your band, and playing covers by reading dots in a function band?

I'll tell you... When you learn songs from tab, you still have to spend HOURS rehearsing. With dots, everyone is literally reading from the same sheet.

If you ask me, rehearsing is a much bigger waste of time and you only have to learn to read music once, and then you can take that skill from band to band.

If you learn by ear, you have to start from scratch again with structures and dynamics yadda yadda yadda.

A much bigger waste of time doing it that way if you ask me (not to mention the fact that if you can't read, you've instantly cut out a sizeable chunk of possible gigs!)

Edited October 28, 2010 by skej21

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='skej21' post='1004468' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:18 PM']What's the difference between reading tablature to learn a set of covers for your band, and playing covers by reading dots in a function band?

I'll tell you... When you learn songs from tab, you still have to spend HOURS rehearsing. With dots, everyone is literally reading from the same sheet.[/quote]

Well I don't play in covers bands, but maybe the guys who do can tell us how often they use sheet music?

Incidentally I don't think I've ever read a tab either, it looks like a crap way of describing music.

[aceuggy]

[quote name='XB26354' post='1004464' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:16 PM']Replying to the OP?
I don't know. Do you need to read music?[/quote]

I don't think so. Being able to play along in sync with the rest of the band and enjoying the vibe seems to be more important.

[Jerry_B]

[quote name='skej21' post='1004468' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:18 PM']If you learn by ear, you have to start from scratch again with structures and dynamics yadda yadda yadda.

A much bigger waste of time doing it that way if you ask me (not to mention the fact that if you can't read, you've instantly cut out a sizeable chunk of possible gigs!)[/quote]

Hmm - that depends on how good your ear is. If you can pick up a song after hearing once or twice, there's no need to spend hours on it. If the other people in the band know the song too, it won't be any sort of epic struggle.

[aceuggy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1004477' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:25 PM']Incidentally I don't think I've ever read a tab either, it looks like a crap way of describing music.[/quote]

That's as maybe, but it's the only way I can play music at the moment and I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. Hopefully in time I will discover other ways.