Do I need to read music

[Jerry_B]

The best rule of thumb then is to use what suits you right now and gets the job done Adding more to your skill set - if you feel the need for it - can come later over time.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Jerry_B

[Mog]

[quote name='skej21' post='1004468' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:18 PM']With dots, everyone is literally reading from the same sheet.

you only have to learn to read music once, and then you can take that skill from band to band.[/quote]

I think that fairly well nails the pros. Sight reading is however extermely hard to pull off 100%, so therefore I wouldnt recommend it ahead of regular practice.

End of the day its a personal choice. Does the ability make someone a "better" musician? Absolutely not. Practice is the only way to improve. I'd still suggest that the OP learns to read though.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Mog

[stingrayPete1977]

I would strugle to find a pub/function band that uses dots TBH and I have been in a few. For what its worth and I dont want to open a can of worms but I hate playing with a dep where they read to learn/play the parts without rehearsing first, I find it a stale unstisfying process. Its great for session work etc but for rocking out in your local pub it sucks.

Anyone who cant read automatically gets the you cant read you cant comment response (as we have seen) but I think the reason this keeps coming up is some people are glad they never learnt and feel from playing with those that have that it can stunt your learning of techniques that are often only found then mastered by accident. But hey what do I know I cant read anyway!

[xilddx]

Guys, guys, GUYS!

I am NOT knocking sight reading, no sir. I am saying you have to have priorities. It looks to me like this guy wants to be in a band and he's a relative beginner. He's asking if it is necessary for a rock and blues band. It IS NOT! At this moment he has other priorities, like developing his ear and technique and other necessaries required of him in a band situation, yet you persist in saying that he should learn to sight read now, while he's young and at the beginning of his bass career. Is this when YOU learned? You are putting the OP in situations he is not going to come across for years. Trashing a trumpet solo, in a well rehearsed amateur rock blues band? Give this guy a bloody chance to get started. He's not even played in a band yet and you are wondering what his career chances are when he f***s up backing a trumpet solo at Ronnie Scott's. Stroll on sunbeam.

I find it incredibly galling that some of you think I am trying [b]discourage [/b]anyone from sight-reading. THAT is bullshit. I think that reading music is one of the the best things a musician can do. But get this, you learn it when you need to. We are constantly told how easy it is with practice, so learn it when you foresee a NEED to. I can read a bit of music, I know the basics, I will step that sh*t up if, and when, I need to, and book ten lessons with Jake. Until then my limited theory, my ears and my attitude will serve me. Please stop thinking everyone wants to be a pro session musician or a pit head. Some people just want to have fun playing in a band and have a day job. They don't need to be like YOU.

Christ, it's like being in the military for some of you isn't it. I can't believe some of this regimented attitude to the arts.

[stingrayPete1977]

+1 All of what silddx said other than the Christ bit, Im not a christian! lol. But thats what Im trying to say get out there and play, You will not need to read music ever if you dont want to.

[Marvin]

Live for the moment! Learn what you want to learn. Learning is good but if you ain't got the time then don't worry. I can't read a note, but I'm also a sh*te bass player so that doesn't say much

Oh yes almost forgot +1 to what silddx said.

[stingrayPete1977]

There is a local jam we sometimes frequent and there is guy called Ian who they call "One note Ian,The wrong one!" but he is the most cheerful bloke in there so what does that tell you? I have no idea either but its getting late and we answered the OP on post 2 "[b]NO[/b]"

Night all!

[XB26354]

I might add that the number of well-paying, long-term reading gigs in the UK is somewhat less than the fingers on my left hand. In fact outside of depping in West End theatres it's almost non-existent.
I've always considered reading/theory etc as an excellent music educational tool. It happens to allows readers to play a piece of music none of them have ever seen without rehearsal. It's not the be-all and end-all, though.

[skej21]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1004510' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:44 PM']+1 All of what silddx said other than the Christ bit, Im not a christian! lol. But thats what Im trying to say get out there and play, You will not need to read music ever if you dont want to.[/quote]

I agree with you guys on this.

The thing that troubles me is, how do you know that playing pit gigs/reading jobs is something you want to do, if you've never done it?

I learned to read from the beginning with my first tutor and I can't imagine having to acquire that skill in isolation in order to test-run an area of gigging potential. The thought of the workload would put me off!

[stingrayPete1977]

I wouldnt say no to anything but there are things in life you know are just not for you. You can of played in a very similar situation and be able to read a little to know its not your bag and not worth spending time on, There seems to be a theory from those that read that everyone else has to spend hours and hours learning stuff for a gig but there are bass players out there that can play almost every standard number without thinking about it, For self composed stuff it needs to be done with the rest of the band around you IME to get a proper feel for what it sounds like, Thats where it would be useful to be able to jot it down when we all agree that sounded right so as its safe for next weeks practice but saying that most people have there own form of righting things down as long as know what it means that will do just fine for me.

Edited October 28, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[peteb]

Just to add to the old debate that I have played for 30 years in a variety of all types of rock bands (metal/prog/pop & blues) with loads of musicians, many of whom can sight read and have been to music college, etc and have done plenty of deps andf I have never been asked if I can read or been handed a sheet with dots on

The OP would be better to learn all the notes on the neck and learn a little about modes - that will make it easier to learn parts than reading in most band situations.....

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='skej21' post='1004518' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:51 PM']The thing that troubles me is, how do you know that playing pit gigs/reading jobs is something you want to do, if you've never done it?

I learned to read from the beginning with my first tutor and I can't imagine having to acquire that skill in isolation in order to test-run an area of gigging potential. The thought of the workload would put me off![/quote]

Well maybe one day I'd like to be a truck driver but I'm not going to start studying for my HGV license now just in case.

Edit: For me though, pit work would be awful because I hate musicals, and I wouldn't want to play covers because I hate most pop music too.

Edited October 28, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[peteb]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004502' date='Oct 28 2010, 10:39 PM']Guys, guys, GUYS!

I am NOT knocking sight reading, no sir. I am saying you have to have priorities. It looks to me like this guy wants to be in a band and he's a relative beginner. He's asking if it is necessary for a rock and blues band. It IS NOT! At this moment he has other priorities, like developing his ear and technique and other necessaries required of him in a band situation, yet you persist in saying that he should learn to sight read now, while he's young and at the beginning of his bass career. Is this when YOU learned? You are putting the OP in situations he is not going to come across for years. Trashing a trumpet solo, in a well rehearsed amateur rock blues band? Give this guy a bloody chance to get started. He's not even played in a band yet and you are wondering what his career chances are when he f***s up backing a trumpet solo at Ronnie Scott's. Stroll on sunbeam.

I find it incredibly galling that some of you think I am trying [b]discourage [/b]anyone from sight-reading. THAT is bullshit. I think that reading music is one of the the best things a musician can do. But get this, you learn it when you need to. We are constantly told how easy it is with practice, so learn it when you foresee a NEED to. I can read a bit of music, I know the basics, I will step that sh*t up if, and when, I need to, and book ten lessons with Jake. Until then my limited theory, my ears and my attitude will serve me. Please stop thinking everyone wants to be a pro session musician or a pit head. Some people just want to have fun playing in a band and have a day job. They don't need to be like YOU.

Christ, it's like being in the military for some of you isn't it. I can't believe some of this regimented attitude to the arts.[/quote]
BTW - good post!

[JTUK]

For the OP, sure..and I said as such way back when.

but... to move it on a tad
If you get a horn section in a pub/function band, they'll have dots, ..because that is how they invariably learned.
That means the song will have a degree of structure and the band will have to get it..
No horn player I know cannot read. They also insist on playing in dodgy keys which sorts out the gtr players as well.
but it also may mean that that song you learned from memory is in another key. How quickly can you transpose it..on a bass, not so bad, as it is just a position shift, gtrs can tear their hair out...but now you have introduced a bit of a head-f*** as it isn't so comfortable to you now. The count comes in and maybe a little panic...!!! why do you need all that..??
I am not so much making the disctinction between notation and all else..I just think you need to be able to talk through with as many players as poss if you want to do as many gigs as poss.

If you get on the dep circuit, its maybe 50-50 useage, probably more...or it is around here outside of gtr/gtr bands. You can't go on these gigs and use ears to the exclusion of all else and expect to get away with that for too long. You need to be able to follow a chart and it may only be a series of chords and a format. These are not rehearsal driven situations so that is that avenue out of the window.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if you are in a regular situation as you'll have derived a way of working and most are happy with it.

If you can cut your gig which ever way you do it, then fine. If you think you might want to play with more than a couple of people, you'll need a universal set of references, of which notation is one.

To the OP..if you want to maximise who you play with...be able to speak their language, whatever it is, IMO.

Edited October 28, 2010 by JTUK

[Mog]

At the god knows how many gigs I've been to 99.99% of bassists stand there nailed to the spot. They may as well be sight reading. I can run through a song while sight reading and still at least move about a bit. After I've been through the song a few times I wont need the sheet. Just like tab.
The assumption that theres no enjoyment to be had in situations where you are using sheet music is a f***ing joke. Some of the best gigs I've played have been from behind a sheetstand. Enjoyment should be a measure of how well you play (ie can the others in the band count on you not to f*** up), crowd interaction and sense of achievment. That goes for pit, session, rock whatever.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1004529' date='Oct 28 2010, 11:04 PM']If you get a horn section in a pub/function band, they'll have dots, ..because that is how they invariably learned.
That means the song will have a degree of structure and the band will have to get it..
No horn player I know cannot read.[/quote]

Until recently I was in a band with a trumpet player and a trombone player. I'm assuming both can read, but neither ever did. They each wrote their parts in their own shorthand, and neither could read the other's scrawlings.

I did learn a couple of the trombonist's parts to bow them on my DB when we did an acoustic set without the brass once, I just figured them out by ear. Way quicker than having him write them down and then me reading them.

[Doddy]

Silddx- You say that you are not discouraging reading, but by saying that it can be a burden is a very discouraging statement.
Knowing how to read doesn't mean you want to be a session or pit player either. Like I said,it opens up a whole world of material that you can use to improve your playing-be that the many books that are available or the exercises on the bass magazines. I learned to read from the beginning-like every other musician that I've grown up around-and didn't do a reading gig for years,but when a reading gig came along,I was ready. I still do plenty of gigs where I don't need to read,but I also get a lot of calls because I can. I also teach reading as a basic skill,and no one has ever thought that it was a waste of time.

The OP has now stated that he doesn't think it's something that he wants to do,so that kind of renders his initial question as moot.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1004543' date='Oct 28 2010, 11:20 PM'][b]Silddx- You say that you are not discouraging reading, but by saying that it can be a burden is a very discouraging statement.[/b]
Knowing how to read doesn't mean you want to be a session or pit player either. Like I said,it opens up a whole world of material that you can use to improve your playing-be that the many books that are available or the exercises on the bass magazines. I learned to read from the beginning-like every other musician that I've grown up around-and didn't do a reading gig for years,but when a reading gig came along,I was ready. I still do plenty of gigs where I don't need to read,but I also get a lot of calls because I can. I also teach reading as a basic skill,and no one has ever thought that it was a waste of time.

The OP has now stated that he doesn't think it's something that he wants to do,so that kind of renders his initial question as moot.[/quote]
It DOES become a burden when people like YOU say it is necessary to read and write music notation in order to be a complete musician, able to handle all scenarios. It is wrong, it is irresponsible, and it is DISCOURAGING for those beginning their journey into the wonderful world of playing in a rock band.

Some of the other retaliatory posts above from the pro-reading corps are so off the mark, so indoctrinated, as to make me believe that ability to read and write music notation is like being admitted to the Roman Catholic church. The awful arrogance disparaging tab is also nasty and unwarranted. Neither fulfills the ultimate aim of the musician which is to communicate, be expressive, and be true to one's self. One lets you see what notes to play and how, one lets you see what fret and string to play, both are inefficient and are best used in conjunction, which is why you will see both in most American music magazines for the same piece of music.

There seems to be an immense amount of blinkered arrogance from the music reading quarter here. I am saddened by it. This is not what the spirit of music is about

[Jerry_B]

Play how you like, learn to play in a way that suits your needs, and have fun. Surely that's all that matters at the end of the day (before this thread gets locked...)...?

Edited October 28, 2010 by Jerry_B

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004576' date='Oct 28 2010, 11:53 PM']It DOES become a burden when people like YOU say it is necessary to read and write music notation in order to be a complete musician, able to handle all scenarios. It is wrong, it is irresponsible, and it is DISCOURAGING for those beginning their journey into the wonderful world of playing in a rock band.[/quote]

I find it more irresponsible to be neglect it.
I never said anything about having to be able to handle all scenarios,but being able to read will help make you a more 'complete' musician,because it is a very important way of being able to communicate music. It's the same with ear training-both are important if you want to be a 'complete musician'(your phrase not mine).
I always encourage new players to learn to read from the beginning. Alot of them may never use it outside of lessons or the practise room,but none of them have regretted learning it. Besides,virtually all other instrumentalists learn to read,why should bass players be any different?
How is it wrong and irresponsible to encourage someone to learn as much as they can about their instrument?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1004598' date='Oct 29 2010, 12:17 AM']I find it more irresponsible to be neglect it.
I never said anything about having to be able to handle all scenarios,but being able to read will help make you a more 'complete' musician,because it is a very important way of being able to communicate music. It's the same with ear training-both are important if you want to be a 'complete musician'(your phrase not mine).
I always encourage new players to learn to read from the beginning. Alot of them may never use it outside of lessons or the practise room,but none of them have regretted learning it. Besides,virtually all other instrumentalists learn to read,why should bass players be any different?
How is it wrong and irresponsible to encourage someone to learn as much as they can about their instrument?[/quote]
Ohhh god.

Can you cook?

[skej21]

I'm going to turn this whole thing on it's head and say;

As a bassist, they probably wouldn't even notice if you weren't at the gig...

[XB26354]

What a load of crap this thread is. As usual.

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004602' date='Oct 29 2010, 12:20 AM']Ohhh god.

Can you cook?[/quote]

A little. Why?

[xilddx]

[quote name='XB26354' post='1004605' date='Oct 29 2010, 12:23 AM']What a load of crap this thread is. As usual.[/quote]


Then go back to bed.