fender73 Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hi All Used my Status Kingbass 'in anger' for the first time yesterday and i've never seen a bass clip an amp so much before!? The sound and playability was out of this world, but wondered how other KB/18v players players cope - i couldn't get the gain near 1/2 way on the amp (400 watt rehearsal space owned Carlsboro amp!) before it clipped!? Should i lower the bass volume (will it still sound as good?) or buy a 600+ watt head myslef for the headroom???? I've always left the graphic on my basses pretty flat and had the volume full...is it time to change my ways?? Any advice would be great Cheers Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Most amps have 2 controls for volume. One controls the level going in and is near the input and is often labelled gain. The other controls the level going out and is normally located after the tone controls and is labelled volume or master. The gain should be set as high as possible and lots of amps have clip indicators and a few even have vu meters so you can get it just right. The signal should be as high as possible to keep the signal to noise ratio high. The volume control should control the volume. The number of watts you have will only affect the volume. If you have a super hot output though all you end up doing is reducing the gain to compensate. I had one of by GB's output reduced cos it was so much hotter than my other basses. What 18v gives you is more powerful EQ, so if you turn the EQ up then you need to turn the volume on your bass down to compensate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD1 Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Hi Greame I had a Spector NS5CR with a ridiculously hot output. It had EMG's - not sure of the circuit - might have been an Aguilar rather than a Spector Tone Pump. Either way, it used to make the input stage of my EA amp wince - even through the padded active input it would sometimes cut out. (the bass circuit was only 9v - mind you I'm not what you would call a gentle player). I e-mailed Gary at EA and whilst he was surprised, he suggested a slight mod to the amp. Afterwards it didn't cut out, but it would still clip if I didn't keep the pre-amp stage low. The bass had a volume for each pu, and I used to run the bridge on full and the neck on 2/3 (and turn the neck pu up full for slap). Bass and treble slightly boosted. Only solution was to keep the amp pre level down and use the output stage of the amp to get the volume I needed (which was fine with an 800w amp). My Gallien Krueger amp fared slightly better for clipping as the input stage seemed to have more of a pad for actives - but obviously I still had to drive the power stage to compensate. Its trial and error amp-wise and it depends on your playing style. Some will have a more robust pre-amp stage and be able to cope with the hot output of your bass better than others. But, a more powerful amp will allow you to compensate at the power stage. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 There's causing the amp to clip & also how the speakers are enclosed. I rejected a couple of the bigger Ashdown combos for exactly that reason - The Status preamp power just makes the amp sound crap and rattly, even at quite modest volumes. I have no problems with my MarkBass gear, though. I don't know if it's the power/headroom or the fact that each speaker is mounted on an individual little "shock absorber", but the sound is epic & never distorts. I use mine with the pre (gain) at 9 o'clock & the output volume at 12 o'clock. Ample for even most big venues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Sorry guys, but more watts does f*** all to the sensitivity of the input stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burpster Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 ^ ^ I nearly crapped myself when I saw that..... Spot on... Having valves does tho' My PRS basses have 18v pre amps and yes just back off the input vol (gain) and play with the bass EQ or pup vols to get it right..... Everything doesnt have to be on 11 unless you are in 'Tap of course.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD1 Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Did I say that more watts affects the sensitivity of the input stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender73 Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 Hi Guys Thanks for all your advice. I did indeed set the input pre gain until it just started clipping, then used the output post control to adjust volume etc. I think i'm going to look into the possibility of 'cooling' the basses output a bit - i've mailed Rob Green (who's always helpful!) for details as i know other forum members have done similar with other basses (late KB's have a gain control inside the control cavity, mine being early may not have it) I know i could probably turn the KB's volume down, but i'm used to having my basses on full volume and adjusting volume on the amp if at all required Thanks again for all your responses Cheers Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 What exactly is the problem with just turning down the input gain on the amp to compensate for the hot output? If you use more than one bass then I can see you would have a problem and would want to reduce the output like I did. You could use something like an EBS Microbass II or the programmable BDDI if you use more than one basses. The only other problem would be the difference between silence and too much might leave too little useful range of settings on the input gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Rob Green himself suggests active basses shouldn't be played with their volume on full. (Somewhere on the Status site, can't remember where...) My old Trace head used to have a massive amount of headroom, I had the gain up at 9 with my Retroactive J (18V circuit) plugged into the passive input!! My Groove fretless (9v) seems actually to have a hotter output than that. Like has already been said, the 18v supply is there for headroom for the bass's preamp. Anyhoo, my new Nemesis head has to have the -12dB pad on and even then i have the gain on about 4 for the retroactive to stop clipping. Different horses for different courses, innit. Just experimentation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender73 Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='114874' date='Jan 6 2008, 06:54 PM']What exactly is the problem with just turning down the input gain on the amp to compensate for the hot output? If you use more than one bass then I can see you would have a problem and would want to reduce the output like I did. You could use something like an EBS Microbass II or the programmable BDDI if you use more than one basses. The only other problem would be the difference between silence and too much might leave too little useful range of settings on the input gain.[/quote] Hi - No real problem, but as my current amp only has 160 watts, i may not be able to get the headroom i need as the bass is so powerful in a full on gigging situation. I have since found out that later KB's have a gain trim, but mine does not, so i've mailed rob to find out how i can reduce the gain a bit to make it a bit more amp friendly. Cheers Merton as well for your advice - i need to spend some time experimenting! Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 But it wont affect your headroom - thats a function of the master volume. If you have an output of x and gain of y, and your hot bass has an output of x*2 and you set the gain to y/2 the result is the same. You probably do need more watts to get some real headroom but not cos of the hot bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender73 Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share Posted January 7, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='115054' date='Jan 6 2008, 10:28 PM']But it wont affect your headroom - thats a function of the master volume. If you have an output of x and gain of y, and your hot bass has an output of x*2 and you set the gain to y/2 the result is the same. You probably do need more watts to get some real headroom but not cos of the hot bass.[/quote] I must be missing something, cos the way i've always thought of it, is that if i can;t get the gain past 2 or 3 on the amp, then even with the master volume cranked, the amp won't give me the overall volume i need because the output of the bass drives the gain section of the amp too hard? I've never had the problem with passive basses (warwick/fender) as i've been able to have the gain higher? Anyway, i'll sort it and thanks everyone for your input Regards Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) The whole point of the gain control is to set a decent level from which the Power amp can amplify the tone. Let's try some sh*tty diagrams: What you ideally want is a smooth level line: [code]-----(in) and ----(ideal level for out to poweramp)[/code] However, in the case of a lower input, they'll be on different levels: [code] ---------- (ideal level to poweramp) -------(in)[/code] Therefore you need to turn up the gain to reach the desired optimum level. The other side is having a really hot input: [code]--------(in) ----------(ideal level)[/code] In which case you'd need to turn the gain down to get the ideal level of signal to the power amp. Essentially, you're trying to set the signal from the pre-amp to a level the poweramp is happy with, the poweramp purely controls the output volume to the speakers, nothing more nothing less. Another way of putting it: A passive bass with say gain at 9* vs a hot bass at 3*, should be at exactly the same volume whatever the master volume is set at. *Only example figures, real figures require experimentation, amps with clipping monitors will give you a very good idea. Edited January 7, 2008 by Buzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 FWIW, I have two basses with 18v electrics. My Vigier Passion V (S3) Has two single coils and a Pan pot. If run "flat out", its output is too spiky, and can upset preamp stages. As a result, I turn its volume down to about 75%. This smooths out the output, and softens the tone a bit. My Iceni Zoot Chaser has a (naturally hot) SD Basslines MM humbucker and just a volume (and three tone controls + series/parallel + active passive While it's hotter (on "average") it's less peaky output doesn't upset input stages as easily (primarily because it doesn't tend to surprise you with monster peaks if you dig in) Finally, I have a Yamaha Attitude (passive, of course) with the 2 DiMarzio Willpower humbuckers. This has 2 vol, 1 tone. I have to watch the gain on my input stage with this. In spite of the fact that it's a passive instrument, it's as hot as the Zoot! It's not just a problem for active instruments! It's perfectly acceptable to calm down hot instruments by easing off the volume on the bass itself. It can affect the tone, but not necessarily in a negative way. Use the clip indicators on your input stages to help set the input gain, and [i]listen[/i] to what's coming out of your stack/monitors/headphones/in-ear systems for the onset of distortion and back off the gain. Then there's the matter of compressors and how they [i]may[/i] help... But that's another thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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