The Rise & rise of the mechanistic 'Music school'

[silverfoxnik]

Hi Folks,

The son of a dear family friend has been coming to see me for a bit of help & advice for 18 months or so, ever since he started at Brighton Institute of Modern Music (BIMM), where's he's studying bass.

When he comes round, he plays me an MP3 of a dreadfull, dull, uninspiring piece of music that sounds like the awful offspring of a composition by the keyboard player from Rockschool and Cliff Richard's team of pop writers - it is just f*****g awful! The poor lad then spends a few hours learning to play along to this drivel whilst I sit and offer words of encoutragement and make tea...

Trouble is, this kid is really, really talented - a total natural musician and a very gifted bass player. But this stupid course is going to suck all the imagination, excitement and talent out of him if he stays there any longer!!

The thing is, all the great bass players that people talk about on this forum (and others) like James Jamerson, Jaco, John Entwhistle etc, etc, all approached bass playing in a unique way that would never be taught on courses like the ones that are run at these so called 'schools of music'. These pioneering bassists broke all the rules yet have managed to make great music and inspire thousands of bass players the world over.

So, shouldn't we be teaching and/or encouraging individuality and freedom of expression over and above everything else in the hope that we let the next generation of young creative bass players come shining through?

Any thoughts on this really welcome as I'd like to discuss it with this young lad and see what he thinks about his future before it's too late...

Cheers

Nik

[NickThomas]

Isnt Stu Clayton involved with the bass side of things at BIMM? Maybe he'll get something changed about the syllabus when he's onboard.
Personally I've never met anyone that's been through a BIMM course that hasnt come out of it as a superb musician. Than again I didn't know any of said musicians before they enrolled lol

[ARGH]

Im in a rock and a hard place on this one...

Im being interviewed for Bristol Bimm on Tuesday,and I think Im going to cancel.

Bar learning to read to a better standard,I think its a waste of money,you can learn just as much ,if not more ,real experience in a Covers/functions band...

I did,that last 4 years have been a drag,but I did get paid.

[bass_ferret]

Must admit that I think these schools are not quite rock and roll, not at all rock and roll in fact.

Once upon a time music college was only available to classical musicians amd I guess these offer an alternative for more proletarian instruments but where are all the gigs going to be for all these sh*t hot, sight read anything bass players. They will end up flipping burgers in Macdonalds like most graduates.

[NickThomas]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='115050' date='Jan 6 2008, 10:23 PM']They will end up flipping burgers in Macdonalds like most graduates.[/quote]


Forever the optimist lol

[wateroftyne]

I s'pose it depends on what you want out of it.

I have to admit, the idea of being taught rock and roll in a classroom (or similar) makes my blood run cold.

Just get out there and play...

[LukeFRC]

I went to art school so is probably a bit different but but may have similarities, heres my two pence...

They create a system where they can teach the lowest common denominator to get to a certain standard and pass the course. If you do the course you will get taught the stuff up to that standard.
If you are any good and can keep motivated there will be the facilities to go beyond what you have to learn into something that is your own. Work hard, push yourself beyond (and sometimes against) the system and you realise the system is in a wierd way helping you too.

[jay249]

Bristol BIMM, for those of you who don't know is a new thing running in the center of Bristol starting september, it worries me - in that Bristol already has Access to Music and I think this is now over cooking it a bit, it's a small scene even, even for a fair sized city, and I'd be surprised if there's going to be enough students between them for it to work, given that quality control can also be fairly poor, and absolute shockers of musicians making it through the nets, come on, I got in, for god's sake!

I think that for the right kind of person, of which I think i am/was, these courses can be a good time to focus on your playing and ''make contacts'' and I was one of the lucky ones and found work through it, the school leavers/dossers-about will come into these courses and leave with little or nothing.

[Davemarks]

I'm a touch biased here, seeing that I teach at the Institute, but here's my angle...

I get students from all walks of life and all ability levels coming to my classes. I teach them about some of the fundamentals of music and try to equip them with the tools to become working musicians.

Often, the sucess of the student is more related to their own work ethic and level of commitment. A good school provides a focused and intensive environment in which to explore one's craft.

One of the most important reasons for going to college is that it gives you a realistic idea of where you are as a player.

Every year, I get at least one player who is good. A competant player who can hold their own on a covers gig and is probably the best bass player in his/her small town.

If they can't do something (read, improvise, solo, compose) they just ignore that part of their musical makeup and probably miss out on opportunites because of it. They are often a self praising nightmare of misplacced confidence and they make up for any inability with loudmouthed arrogance.

Every single one of these students has had a lightbulb moment sometime on their course. They come down to earth, get a little humility, become a much nicer person for it and start to go about raising their game in a way they never would have done alone.

It's a sad fact that people rarely work on things they are not good at, and those are the things that need the most work!

Each individual must come to their own path, but to say that learning from a school means you can't rock / have no soul / all sound the same... is as good as saying:

'Because we all learned to read and write properly, none of us are impassioned and none of us have any real ideas. If you want some great ideas, ask an illiterate person.'

Ridiculous.

I'm very happy to debate this topic, so please feel free to disagree...

P.s. - having never been to BIMM I can't state anything about their courses or materials, but they have a fine reputation as a school...

[Jebo1]

From my perspective, the courses never focus enough on the real life aspects of the music business (the gigs, sight reading, teaching skills). They focus on the 'glory' stuff, and I don't think a lot of it is relevant because less than 1% of the students that qualify will ever sign record contracts and the rest of it.

I also think that anything on the courses is easy to learn yourself if you have the right attitude. Sight reading, the principles of music (chords/scales/harmony/melody) are all concepts you can teach yourself.

When I was teaching a lot, I was always so frustrated with the fact that the students would never go home and practice at all. When I was a kid I wore out 3 tape recorders transcribing bass parts to tracks.

And there is no real session scene any more. I watched the drummer from Portishead earn £25 doing a jazz gig today. If someone of that calibre is reduced to doing that, then there ain't enough work! (I'm sure he likes jazz, but if it was a case of touring the world with a band, I'm sure he'd be doing the latter rather than the former)

If you want to earn money, take up double bass and play jazz or join a functions band! Great fun, good money and you sometimes get to shag the odd bird at a wedding party! Much better than an early night then a full day at ATM.

[jay249]

Now the quality control on wedding gig girls, that's another thing entirely.

[6stringbassist]

I have to totally agree with Dave Marks on this, no matter how good you think you are, there's always something that you can learn, and these colleges give you that chance, you are there to focus on your playing for however many years.

If you want to be a professional musician then you need to be able to cover any gig, it's no use being offered a country and western gig and turning it down saying "hey I'm a funk player", that gig might just pay that weeks rent.

Courses like this open doors to you to all genres of music, which is perhaps something you wouldn't otherwise get.

And don't forget all the useful contacts that you make while on the course.

[Jebo1]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='115142' date='Jan 7 2008, 12:41 AM']I have to totally agree with Dave Marks on this, no matter how good you think you are, there's always something that you can learn, and these colleges give you that chance, you are there to focus on your playing for however many years.

If you want to be a professional musician then you need to be able to cover any gig, it's no use being offered a country and western gig and turning it down saying "hey I'm a funk player", that gig might just pay that weeks rent.

Courses like this open doors to you to all genres of music, which is perhaps something you wouldn't otherwise get.

And don't forget all the useful contacts that you make while on the course.[/quote]

In an ideal world, this woud be what the courses would all be about.

In the real world, they aren't. Sad but true.

And often they are run by people without a clue. I looked on the BIMM site, and I don't really need lessons from some guy who was in Pitchshifter or 'The Jeevas' and I certainly wouldn't give up 3 years of my life, and untold thousands of pounds to do so.

I used to teach one of these courses and it was so frustrating, so much talent but for some no aptitude for others, just not enough time to explore it!

[wateroftyne]

I guess you are a little biased, Dave!

[2wheeler]

From what I have experienced in education, talent comes burning through whatever you do. So does individuality and creativity.

An effect that I do see is that education does tend to make competent, somewhat uniform, professionals out of less talented individuals. I think that's entirely useful and worthwhile: the world needs competent professionals. But don't make the mistake of thinking that this uniform standard for the 90% is capping the performance of the outstanding 10% (or less) of individuals, which it never does, IMHO.

As for dull practice tracks - I know what you mean! But it's really hard to get away from (you can't have Keith Moon drop in every time you feel inspired - for so many reasons) and those tracks do a useful job.

[Mottlefeeder]

Slightly off-topic, but still relevant (I think) -

I recently parted from my bass teacher because he attributes my lack of progress to a mental block, which he thinks is is my problem, not his.

For the past ~3 years, I have approached bass playing as a series of challenges, and having visited that aspect of melody/rhythm/harmony, and understood it, I have parked it and moved on to the next challenge. My teacher did not pick that up. The current position is that I know quite a lot, but given a chord sequence, and a song style, my first attempt is a stagger-through, rather than a competent bass-line.

From my perspective, some people need to be lead by the hand (in my case, guidance on how you incorporate it into your style), and some people need a guru, who gives general direction and they work out the rest themselves.

I think it is easy to condem the 'other teaching method', when both are equally relevant.

[wateroftyne]

I'm intrigued... can someone give me an idea of the length and cost of one of these courses?

[gilmour]

I'm very surprised to the negativity towards the BIMM courses, especially as most of the posts admit to not having been on the course, or to the school!

I can sympathise with Niks's original post, as I'm not sure that this course or any of it's equivalents are great at inspiring creativity and individuality, however they are great for improving you all round general musicianship, reading, improvising, composition, extending your repetoire etc. I also feel that some of the comments that you can learn more by being in a good gigging covers band are a little misinformed, you can learn a hell of a lot giggng like that that you wouldn;t learn at music school, however you won't learn the accompanying musicanship, which if you aspire to more than just covers (sessioning, teaching etc) that you just have to understand.

My personal feeling is that these courses (ACM, BIMM, et al) are very good for your playing, but need to be accompanied with 'real world' playing, if you really aspire to be a pro musician then you need to be doing both.

[Beedster]

Education is big money, and very few in education examine the rationale for, or even the ethics of, what they teach. I have been teaching (graduate, postgraduate and doctoral) a very specific area of psychology for years and have just resigned my post because I am fed up with what education has become in the UK, i.e., mass market, exploitative and in many cases, pretty much worthless to the student.
My view of the music schools in question are informed by the extremely poor quality teaching materials I've seen from a few, so I agree with Nik's comments. Whether there is a place for full-time, systematic and high-level education in popular music performance akin to that in orchestral performance is a question that perhaps requires more thought than I suspect many of the institutions, and even the students, give it. As somneone said above, it ain't rock and roll really is it
Chris
Note: All opinions are those of the author and no animals were hurt in the making of this rant

[Bilbo]

Just my four penn'th...

I think I am on side with Beedster - teaching and learning are arts in themselves and being a good player does not make you a good teacher (I hear Jeff Clyne, an astonsihingly accomplished technician, can't teach for s***). Being a student also doesn't put you in a space to learn (my own year at art college was a wasted opportunity - my fault, no-one elses). I think more should be made of independent learning and mentoring or even distance learning (yes, it could work) rather than these large commercial seats of learning. I think the best thing to get out of a college situation is lots of potential playing opportunities all day every day. But if you ain't gonna do the wood-shedding, you ain't gonna get any better. There ain't no magic cure.

[b]Recipe for Improvement[/b][u][/u]

Lock yourself away with your bass, Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book (not just for jazzers), a PC containing Transcribe software and a pair of headphone, a few dozen cds and lots of coffee. Make as much sense of it as you can then go out and play with anyone, anywhere, as much as you can.

Cheques can be sent to me care of Basschat....

[Jebo1]

[quote name='Beedster' post='115386' date='Jan 7 2008, 01:03 PM']Education is big money, and very few in education examine the rationale for, or even the ethics of, what they teach. I have been teaching (graduate, postgraduate and doctoral) a very specific area of psychology for years and have just resigned my post because I am fed up with what education has become in the UK, i.e., mass market, exploitative and in many cases, pretty much worthless to the student.
My view of the music schools in question are informed by the extremely poor quality teaching materials I've seen from a few, so I agree with Nik's comments. Whether there is a place for full-time, systematic and high-level education in popular music performance akin to that in orchestral performance is a question that perhaps requires more thought than I suspect many of the institutions, and even the students, give it. As somneone said above, it ain't rock and roll really is it
Chris
Note: All opinions are those of the author and no animals were hurt in the making of this rant [/quote]

Probably the most considered analysis of music school tuition I've heard in a long time.

Hope you find something more fitting to dedicate your life to mate, sad to hear of more teachers giving up to the sh1t nature of our education system (I know of at least 4 close friends who have done the same...)

[Jebo1]

Oh, and the entrance standard to one of the degree courses I have seen (I believe at BIMM) was the same level (of music reading and understanding) I would expect of one of my private students after about 3 months. Whatever there age.

[ARGH]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='115423' date='Jan 7 2008, 01:51 PM'][b]Recipe for Improvement[/b][u][/u]

Lock yourself away with your bass, Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book (not just for jazzers), a PC containing Transcribe software and a pair of headphone, a few dozen cds and lots of coffee. Make as much sense of it as you can then go out and play with anyone, anywhere, as much as you can.

Cheques can be sent to me care of Basschat....[/quote]


Got it,was trying to study it,but cant find a DECENT tutor to help me over the 'hard bits'.(would you be willing Bilbo???)

cost of 1 year at Bimm in Bristol doing the pro dip in modern music is £1250 for under 19s and over 19s pay £4895....

I'll be frank,Im taking my 9 tomorrow,I wonder if I will get the same answer I got from the ACM a few years ago regarding where I wanted to go with my playing

Guy looks about ..checks 'No one' is in room or the least earshot...

"Go to London...we dont really do that here"

Which then makes me question WHAT they do? Now anyone playing 6 hrs a day 6 days a week IS going to improve somewhat,but I see an awful lot of money,being wasted,on dreams...you aint gonna get the experiences you need unless you are out there doing it,gigs are random ,no exercise book is gonna prepare you for that,Maybe I just want a space to just do my thing.

[Thunderthumbs]

[quote name='Davemarks' post='115093' date='Jan 6 2008, 11:31 PM']If they can't do something (read, improvise, solo, compose) they just ignore that part of their musical makeup and probably miss out on opportunites because of it.

It's a sad fact that people rarely work on things they are not good at, and those are the things that need the most work![/quote]

I'm humble enough to admit that I've done pretty much that for some years.

I've recently been inspired by a few bass players, and it's given me new impetus. I'm trying to concentrate on the things I know I'm not good at. I may be in my 40s now, but it's never to late to learn and improve.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='115050' date='Jan 6 2008, 10:23 PM']They will end up flipping burgers in Macdonalds like most graduates.[/quote]

[quote name='NickThomas' post='115074' date='Jan 6 2008, 11:01 PM']Forever the optimist lol[/quote]

'Fraid so. When I went to University it was gonna get you a good job cos hardly anyone went - I was the first to go in my family. Now everyone goes to University and you can get a degree in bass guitar.

The stuff that really gets on my tits though is all the ads on telly for IT training. All the big IT companies - and I work for one - are doing loads of work offshore. That Golden Goose has been well and truly stuffed - not that you would know it from the ads.