The Rise & rise of the mechanistic 'Music school'

[Paul Cooke]

I would suggest investing the money in a course in record mixing and production with some chunks in compositional theory, song writing etc... and while you're there, take advantage of the facilities to practice hard and record your own compositions... and also make some contacts and get out playing as a group to get some real performance under your belt...

for your coursework, you could then record and produce a demo record for your group...

then again, I'd be expecting to do all that as part of a diploma in modern music anyway...

[Guest]

The collage i went to also taught bricklaying, they were taught the basics then how to do fancy stuff like spirals and arches etc. When they had finished this course they went out and built houses. Once you know the basic steps you can build something as high as you like.

[Breakfast]

I think if you do a degree in something you care about you'll come out with a better degree. I also think that if you have a solid foundation of theoretical knowledge and practical skill it will give you a really good basis for applying whatever talents you have in a more refined and creative way.

To my mind the real metric for the success of any degree course is having students doing something they care about enough to really put the work in on their own time. If courses in bass give you that then great. And if they include the basics of working for yourself and dealing with the music industry then that will be handy if they give up on their degree subject and get a regular job instead.

It's no worse than the average degree that's available now. If it helps people get a leg-up into working in music then great- there will be some more outstanding music for us to listen to. If not, then at least they've been able to really enjoy their university course, which is- after all - the point of university.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Beedster' post='115386' date='Jan 7 2008, 01:03 PM']Education is big money, and very few in education examine the rationale for, or even the ethics of, what they teach. I have been teaching (graduate, postgraduate and doctoral) a very specific area of psychology for years and have just resigned my post because I am fed up with what education has become in the UK, i.e., mass market, exploitative and in many cases, pretty much worthless to the student.
My view of the music schools in question are informed by the extremely poor quality teaching materials I've seen from a few, so I agree with Nik's comments. Whether there is a place for full-time, systematic and high-level education in popular music performance akin to that in orchestral performance is a question that perhaps requires more thought than I suspect many of the institutions, and even the students, give it. As somneone said above, it ain't rock and roll really is it
Chris
Note: All opinions are those of the author and no animals were hurt in the making of this rant [/quote]
Hi Folks,

Thanks for taking time to post your thoughts here, some of which have got me thinking about my original post. I kind of agree with Chris's point about this idea of education in the UK becoming ,[i] "..mass market, exploitative and in many cases, pretty much worthless to the student."[/i] and as a teacher, he should know.

One of the things that I find so mystifying about this in an 'Alice in Wonderland' kind of way is that the recent massive growth in music schools/colleges has come at a time when the industry has shrunk to the point where it cannot possibly support all these new competent or brilliant musicians, no matter how much they've been taught how to be 'professional in their playing, their attitude, keep to a diary, learn how to network etc!

My guess is that because there's no real money left in the music biz from record sales that all the new schools/college are and have been created and run by the people who used to be able to eke out a living through being in a signed band situation?

On the other point about creativity, someone said that the really gifted 10% or so will always come shining through and I think that's fair to say.. As it is about how if you love something you're studying, then you'll do well at it. So, I have definitely taken those positive comments about the music schools on board..

My gut reaction though is that Jimi Hendrix, John Lennon, Elvis, Jaco, The Ox even Mark King for example , would never have even considered going through these type of music schools.. Rather, they would have been too busy getting out there doing it for real each in their own unique way..

Nik

[Shockwave]

I wont go into a huge debate about this.

However, Since when did anyone need a degree or qualification in music to actually play or get a session?

The laughable thing is, I have been in a music tec hcourse and had interviews for various music courses and i find it hilarious how teachers try and sell the course. And how it gives big oppurtunities to anyone.

I am not so much against the course as i am against the teachers and people who try and sell these courses as a must have to be a musician.

However as to making students do bland uninteresting music, that is also down to the teachers. When i did a BTEC Music technology I made a death metal/jazz track in 7/8 and 3/4. My teachers loved it.

However did it set me up for anything in the real world or teach me anything new about music technology? Not really i got a overall merit grade yet i never learnt how to sight read, never was able to use logic effectively and didnt get any work from it. It was fun but at the end of the day the people who create and teach these courses go home with money in their pocket and the student goes home with a worthless qualification.

Now i am at uni studying Computer software engineering and the amount of work i have put in the past 3 months and the amount i have learned is staggering and twice as much as any music course. And i knew more about computing then i did music.

So in closing.

Music courses = Sometimes fun, Worthless qualification, If you have time and money to do it and maybe learn something do it, But never do it for a career. (Unless your a classical musician, in which case you should have started back when you took your GCSE's!

EDIT: I learnt far more watching other musicians play at live gigs then i have courses.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Shockwave

[stingrayfan]

Isn't it just like actors going to acting school? Bear in mind most bass playing jobs in the music industry won't be in Top 10 rock bands. It'll be reading off charts somewhere random like a theatre show or a cruise. It pays to be a Jaco of all trades rather than a Mark King of one.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='stingrayfan' post='116075' date='Jan 8 2008, 09:49 AM']Isn't it just like actors going to acting school? Bear in mind most bass playing jobs in the music industry won't be in Top 10 rock bands. It'll be reading off charts somewhere random like a theatre show or a cruise. It pays to be a Jaco of all trades rather than a Mark King of one. [/quote]

Believe it or not i have also done 6 years of drama and related subjects.

With acting yes its an art as much as music is, however there is alot more to it. With acting its very hard to learn at home on your own how to act. You need to have criticism because you cant watch yourself act well. However being a musician is far easier to teach on your own. You can record and hear your mistakes easily.

Plus there is some demand for the very good actors at acting school and generally get hired during or after completing the course.

Also as to the jaco of all trades and mark king comment. I would rather play like Mark King then a jaco. yes i probably wont get very famous or rich from it. But at least i will be playing in the style i really want to. To me playing the music i want to play in the way i wish to play it is far more important then adhering to a standard and be bored playing but for money.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Shockwave

[wateroftyne]

Y'see, to me, music is one of the most primal, emotional & soulful pleasures we have.

I'm fairly sure 99.9% of the musicians I admire have never been on one of these courses.

I seem to recall that Dream Theatre formed at Berkeley. *cough*

[Shockwave]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='116085' date='Jan 8 2008, 10:12 AM']Y'see, to me, music is one of the most primal, emotional & soulful pleasures we have.

I'm fairly sure 99.9% of the musicians I admire have never been on one of these courses.

I seem to recall that Dream Theatre formed at Berkeley. *cough*[/quote]

Whilst they are one of my fave bands and musicians of a excellant calibre i dont see any emotion or originality in the lines they make. Sure they are technical but they have zero emotion, Sure they can "Simulate" Emotion, But still. Dream theater are alot like classical musicians. They are about as rock and roll as a prawn cocktail crisp packet.

(Yes i am a huge fan of them but i dont delude myself with biased ramblings!)

[Bilbo]

Just a thought - I have worked with only one pianist who could REALLY sight read anything. I discussed his skills with him and he revealed that it actually took him 15 years to develop this skill. THAT is why the schools in question don't teach sight reading - because they can't get it into an academic year.

I guess its like those 8 week courses at community colleges - brain surgery for beginners! Yeah, right.

[gilmour]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='116127' date='Jan 8 2008, 11:36 AM']Just a thought - I have worked with only one pianist who could REALLY sight read anything. I discussed his skills with him and he revealed that it actually took him 15 years to develop this skill. THAT is why the schools in question don't teach sight reading - because they can't get it into an academic year.[/quote]
??
Last time I looked at the ACM syllabus for the one year Dip. there was 4 hours sight reading a week in there - double that of any of the other subjects studied on the course. Adnitidley not enough time to perfect it.

Edited January 8, 2008 by gilmour

[alexclaber]

Last year we playing on the same bill as a BIMM band. They were insanely tight, grooved well and generally did all the right things on a technical basis. Unfortuately they were also totally hopeless at writing songs, particularly on the lyrical front, deeply uncool, totally emotionless and one of the least rock and roll things I have ever encountered. Music by numbers. A bit like Dream Theater actually...

I guess with almost everyone going and getting a degree in some strange media related field you might as well go and spend your time playing bass with the government paying for it (is that possible?) But I'd be very surprised if even 1% of their graduates went onto a career as a professional musician and once successful in that field considered their diploma/degree as an important stepping stone.

Alex

[Thunderthumbs]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='116276' date='Jan 8 2008, 03:20 PM']Last year we playing on the same bill as a BIMM band. They were insanely tight, grooved well and generally did all the right things on a technical basis. Unfortuately they were also totally hopeless at writing songs, particularly on the lyrical front, deeply uncool, totally emotionless and one of the least rock and roll things I have ever encountered. Music by numbers.[/quote]
Reminds me pretty much why Toto used to get a lot of criticism too.

I'm sure The Clash would never have attended the likes of BIMM, and although they were never my favourite band at the time, I can't deny the influence they've had on music on both sides of the Atlantic.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='116276' date='Jan 8 2008, 03:20 PM']Last year we playing on the same bill as a BIMM band. They were insanely tight, grooved well and generally did all the right things on a technical basis. Unfortuately they were also totally hopeless at writing songs, particularly on the lyrical front, deeply uncool, totally emotionless and one of the least rock and roll things I have ever encountered. Music by numbers. A bit like Dream Theater actually...
Alex[/quote]
That sounds very much in line with another Basschat member who I was talking to yesterday who attended BIMM for 1 year but he left feeling it wasn't taking him where he wanted to go. One thing he said really surprised me, which was that BIMM often encourage their students to be in as many bands as possible which he described as having 'killed the live music scene in Brighton' because people were in loads of bands which they didn't really have their heart in at all!!
To me, that's just crazy advice

[Beedster]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='116318' date='Jan 8 2008, 04:36 PM']That sounds very much in line with another Basschat member who I was talking to yesterday who attended BIMM for 1 year but he left feeling it wasn't taking him where he wanted to go. One thing he said really surprised me, which was that BIMM often encourage their students to be in as many bands as possible which he described as having 'killed the live music scene in Brighton' because people were in loads of bands which they didn't really have their heart in at all!!
To me, that's just crazy advice [/quote]

There's too many people in education who are there because they didn't make it in the specific domain themselves ("those who can't do teach"). Consequently, many of these educators have no first-hand experience of the mechanisms required to succeed in the real World. This doesn't matter in many academic disciplines which are knowledge-based. However, I don't believe that this is true of music. Some of what I consider the most powerful and emotive music I've ever heard is played by musicians who are very poor technicians, whilst other music I consider equally powerful and emotive is played by brilliant technicians. Logically therefore, technique is not a requisite for creativity (IMHO that is). What I believe IS common to both the technically naive and the technically gifted creators of such music is their emotional connection with the material (lyrically and musically), with their fellow musicians and with their audience. Show me a lecturer who can teach that? I suspect that in the fullness of time we'll start to see that the only viable career path for the majority of graduates of such music schools - at least those who want to pursue their chosen profession - is to take up teaching posts in such music schools
Chris

Edited January 8, 2008 by Beedster

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='Beedster' post='116373' date='Jan 8 2008, 05:45 PM']I suspect that in the fullness of time we'll start to see that the only viable career path for the majority of graduates of such music schools - at least those who want to pursue their chosen profession - is to take up teaching posts in such music schools
Chris[/quote]
What about music teachers in mainstream schools and also tutors who give individual lessons? I've thought of doing this myself in the future (tutoring, that is - no way am I gonna teach music to a bunch of kids who mostly don't want to be doing it anyway) and figured that having done a course at a music school would help fill out the gaps in my knowledge and ability, so if someone asks me a question I won't have to just shrug it off as not being my area... I'm sure I can learn any skills I want to without paying someone else to teach me, but how can I learn how to pass this on to others?

[Beedster]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='116378' date='Jan 8 2008, 05:54 PM']What about music teachers in mainstream schools and also tutors who give individual lessons? I've thought of doing this myself in the future (tutoring, that is - no way am I gonna teach music to a bunch of kids who mostly don't want to be doing it anyway) and figured that having done a course at a music school would help fill out the gaps in my knowledge and ability, so if someone asks me a question I won't have to just shrug it off as not being my area... I'm sure I can learn any skills I want to without paying someone else to teach me, but how can I learn how to pass this on to others?[/quote]

I think I'm correct in saying that music teachers in mainstream schools would require either a music teaching qualification or a PGCE; I doubt that a music school diploma would either constitute the former or satisfy the entry requirements for the latter. I can't really comment on whether a qualification would be of any help to you as a private teacher.
Chris

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Beedster' post='116373' date='Jan 8 2008, 05:45 PM']There's too many people in education who are there because they didn't make it in the specific domain themselves ("those who can't do teach"). Consequently, many of these educators have no first-hand experience of the mechanisms required to succeed in the real World. This doesn't matter in many academic disciplines which are knowledge-based. However, I don't believe that this is true of music. Some of what I consider the most powerful and emotive music I've ever heard is played by musicians who are very poor technicians, whilst other music I consider equally powerful and emotive is played by brilliant technicians. Logically therefore, technique is not a requisite for creativity (IMHO that is). What I believe IS common to both the technically naive and the technically gifted creators of such music is their emotional connection with the material (lyrically and musically), with their fellow musicians and with their audience. Show me a lecturer who can teach that? I suspect that in the fullness of time we'll start to see that the only viable career path for the majority of graduates of such music schools - at least those who want to pursue their chosen profession - is to take up teaching posts in such music schools
Chris[/quote]

Have to agree with all that you say there Chris, but it's a scary thought what you've said in the last sentence!!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='116318' date='Jan 8 2008, 04:36 PM']That sounds very much in line with another Basschat member who I was talking to yesterday who attended BIMM for 1 year but he left feeling it wasn't taking him where he wanted to go. One thing he said really surprised me, which was that BIMM often encourage their students to be in as many bands as possible which he described as having 'killed the live music scene in Brighton' because people were in loads of bands which they didn't really have their heart in at all!!
To me, that's just crazy advice [/quote]

I hadn't realised it went that far! All I'd noticed was the proliferation of short lived bands that will do anything to gig because they have nothing better to do and/or it scores them points for their course, so those of us that are trying to either generate a following or make money struggle to get gigs or break even...

IMO if you want to get into the world of pro playing, get out there and play, don't do a degree in it! And if you want to do original music, write some songs, put a band together, and start gigging and recording.

Alex

[jay249]

The crappy and annoying academic side of it, paperwork and 'key skills' that colleges have to incorporate is also a huge pain in the ass, I spent the last 3 years at Access to Music, and while I only feel my biggest improvement in playing has been in the 6 or so months since I 'graduated' (and decided to get my ass in gear), but I could never discount it as a 'waste of time' or what anyone else is saying.

We only had an hour of instrumental tuition a week, which could never be enough, and about 4-6 hours using the rehearsal rooms.

No it hasn't prepared me for work in music, yes it has given me 3 years to doss about and play bass every day, and I'm playing in quality function/party/whatever bands, with people of twice my age/''experience'' and getting paid, and I'm teaching people to play bass, and getting paid, and all of this happened in the 6 months since i left, so It must have done something for me, even if it's just a bit of confidence of having it under my belt.

Edited January 8, 2008 by jay249

[Breakfast]

One of the guys off my Philosophy degree went on to teach bass at the ACM, funnily enough. He was an amazing bassist though. I always felt ever so mortal when I heard him play.

[Davemarks]

I'd love to get Jeff Berlin in on this thread.

I remember him saying something along the lines of: 'most people who want to teach themselves don't know what they need to learn.' it's like trying to use a map that you are drawing as you drive the route. It's much easier to have someone with you who knows the way and can direct you to your goal, whatever that may be. (whether that be a private tutor, a friend or a school)

To imply that we'd all be better off just locking ourselves away in a practice room bashing away at Brown eyed girl and mustang sally (possibly at the wrong tempo, with bass fills in the wrong key and a few notes in the groove the wrong length) is madness to me. Often, one's goals in an artform are determined by their understanding of the art. i.e - when we start playing, if we can play something that sounds remotely like a bassline we love, it creates a feeling of incredible uplifting success. For some, that concept progresses, for others... it doesn't really change.

I also find it strange that some of us seem to have a predetermined notion of what it means to 'succeed' as a musician.

Personally I feel that if you truly love music, studying it would only make you more objective about your playing, help you to really 'hear' what you sound like, give you more heartfelt experiences and bring you a greater understanding of the art. Regardless of the gigs you play and whether you're a 'big name' in the music world, to play music well in an honest and heartfelt way is a beautiful thing in itself.

Art is an outward expression of an inner emotion and some people are more tied up with the feeling it gives them than the feeling it gives others. I can't teach someone how to emote but I can be honest with them when they are not giving me anything and try to help them get past that lack of objectivity. Explain to them that they don't have to slap so fast or play all those fills, that their tone is important, that every note has a purpose with in a riff and that slapping in a ballad or soloing bebop in a reggae tune is inappropriate and selfish.

The sad fact is, most people aren't honest enough with themselves.

That's why being taught is a beautiful thing.

P.S. Every week I have a wing chun instructor who's 4 inches shorter than me and 2 stone lighter teach me that being bigger or stronger doesn't win a fight. That's a fact that I'm happy to now realise. I'm not as tough as I thought I was. But I'm getting a little better every week....

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Davemarks' post='116640' date='Jan 8 2008, 10:28 PM']To imply that we'd all be better off just locking ourselves away in a practice room bashing away at Brown eyed girl and mustang sally (possibly at the wrong tempo, with bass fills in the wrong key and a few notes in the groove the wrong length) is madness to me.[/quote]

Who implied that?

[Davemarks]

[quote name='ARGH' post='114915' date='Jan 6 2008, 07:51 PM']Im in a rock and a hard place on this one...

Im being interviewed for Bristol Bimm on Tuesday,and I think Im going to cancel.

Bar learning to read to a better standard,I think its a waste of money,you can learn just as much ,if not more ,real experience in a Covers/functions band...

I did,that last 4 years have been a drag,but I did get paid.[/quote]


Here...

[wateroftyne]

So... playing in a covers/function band involves nothing more than locking oneself away in a practice room bashing away at Brown-Eyed Girl and Mustang Sally, does it?

Edited January 9, 2008 by wateroftyne