The Rise & rise of the mechanistic 'Music school'

[Jebo1]

I don't think there's a higher form of artistic endeavour than that which is entirely self-directed and achieved under no duress by an individual.

The idea of musical tuition is something everyone here agrees with, I certainly benefited from being taught, and I'm sure everyone on here has had positive, illuminating and downright life-changing (in a musical sense) revelations from lessons. No-one denies this.

The problem is when music colleges try and sell to influential youngsters the idea that they can obtain all of the musical experience and skills they require to become a well paid (or at least financially solvent) professional musician from a college course taught by (in some cases at least) unsuccessful musicians. I think this is disingenous.

Furthermore, these colleges sell the idea that there is a viable and sustainable career in music for all of them in the future, and again this patently isn't the case. A student who studies philosophy for example very rarely goes on to become a professional philosopher, but during the course acquires a number of wholly transferable skills which he or she can then apply in the workplace in a variety of positions. This isn't the case with a professional music course which teaches nothing but a very specialised - and to be honest, not neccesserily in demand - skill set. In this way, people are being mis-led.

You put the case for music being an expressive art form beautifully. But the colleges don't sell themselves on an appreciation of musical expression, they are basically saying:

"By studying with BIMM/ACM (delete as applicable) we will supply you with the skills you need to go out and become a professional musician"

This is a lie.

[ARGH]

Problem is 'modern' music keeps changing.

I had a very very very interesting chat with the Bimm gents in Bristol today.

I did walk away with a very positive mental state,and a new friend.

[Davemarks]

Ooops. It's a bit naughty to name and shame like that, although I feel relieved that no one is trashing the Institute. It's important to recognise that these different schools are each entirely unique and have very different philosophies. It bothers me somewhat that we are talking about 'those schools' like they are all the same.

I really cannot attest to the quality of the other establishments or the level of their graduating students each year. I have seen so many students from my classes go on to work in the music industry. Maybe as a player, a tech, a teacher, a programmer in a studio, a manager, a gig / event organiser - these are all viable jobs and they don't need to be at the top level to earn someone money and make them happy in their life. In some cases these are jobs that somone developed a passion for while studying and in some cases they fell into an opportunity that presented itself.

In many cases, they were good people and good players who improved during the time I knew them. On day one of term one, there are very few students I have ever seen (probably none) that I would refer for work.


A couple of sobering thoughts that I present to expand on this topic:


1. It's important to contemplate - in an industry that is shrinking, that has less and less money to pay to musicians, don't we think that being properly trained will boost our chances of winning a place? I don't mean having a degree or diploma. I mean being trained. For at least one year. Hardcore.

2. One of the last sessions I did for a 'breaking artist' I was given the pay sheet breakdown from Universal records. They pay the Monitor tech more money than the musicians.

3. If everyone has a degree these days and we think that makes them meaningless, surely then not having a degree sets you a rung below the expected standard?

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Davemarks' post='116640' date='Jan 8 2008, 10:28 PM']I'd love to get Jeff Berlin in on this thread.

I remember him saying something along the lines of: 'most people who want to teach themselves don't know what they need to learn.' it's like trying to use a map that you are drawing as you drive the route. It's much easier to have someone with you who knows the way and can direct you to your goal, whatever that may be. (whether that be a private tutor, a friend or a school)

To imply that we'd all be better off just locking ourselves away in a practice room bashing away at Brown eyed girl and mustang sally (possibly at the wrong tempo, with bass fills in the wrong key and a few notes in the groove the wrong length) is madness to me. Often, one's goals in an artform are determined by their understanding of the art. i.e - when we start playing, if we can play something that sounds remotely like a bassline we love, it creates a feeling of incredible uplifting success. For some, that concept progresses, for others... it doesn't really change.

I also find it strange that some of us seem to have a predetermined notion of what it means to 'succeed' as a musician.

Personally I feel that if you truly love music, studying it would only make you more objective about your playing, help you to really 'hear' what you sound like, give you more heartfelt experiences and bring you a greater understanding of the art. Regardless of the gigs you play and whether you're a 'big name' in the music world, to play music well in an honest and heartfelt way is a beautiful thing in itself.

Art is an outward expression of an inner emotion and some people are more tied up with the feeling it gives them than the feeling it gives others. I can't teach someone how to emote but I can be honest with them when they are not giving me anything and try to help them get past that lack of objectivity. Explain to them that they don't have to slap so fast or play all those fills, that their tone is important, that every note has a purpose with in a riff and that slapping in a ballad or soloing bebop in a reggae tune is inappropriate and selfish.

The sad fact is, most people aren't honest enough with themselves.

That's why being taught is a beautiful thing.

P.S. Every week I have a wing chun instructor who's 4 inches shorter than me and 2 stone lighter teach me that being bigger or stronger doesn't win a fight. That's a fact that I'm happy to now realise. I'm not as tough as I thought I was. But I'm getting a little better every week....[/quote]
Some very well expressed and quite profound thoughts that I have to agree with you on Dave and it's obvious you believe strongly in teaching as a good thing and, I definitely agree with you on that. I also agree with you that having guidance and help is good too - doesn't matter whether you're Mozart or McCartney; you had to be guided and inspired from someone or somewhere in the beginning.

And certainly one of the most recurring and depressing scenarios I used to encounter when I was an artist manager for 7 years, was that many very talented musicians/artists just weren't honest with themselves or willing to listen to other talented/experienced/supportive people in order to develop themselves and their talent. Usually, that led to them not fulfilling their potential, which was such a waste of talent..

But equally, as Jebo1 says:
[i]"The idea of musical tuition is something everyone here agrees with, I certainly benefited from being taught, and I'm sure everyone on here has had positive, illuminating and downright life-changing (in a musical sense) revelations from lessons. No-one denies this.

The problem is when music colleges try and sell to influential youngsters the idea that they can obtain all of the musical experience and skills they require to become a well paid (or at least financially solvent) professional musician from a college course taught by (in some cases at least) unsuccessful musicians. I think this is disingenous."[/i]

And maybe that Jebos1's point has hit the nail on the head because I suspect that neither the majority of musicians attending these courses nor the people who run them are really interested in the 'art' of it all - what they are really more interested in is the 'business' and the 'means to an end' of it all??

[Davemarks]

[quote name='Jebo1' post='116685' date='Jan 9 2008, 12:06 AM']"By studying with BIMM/ACM (delete as applicable) we will supply you with the skills you need to go out and become a professional musician"

This is a lie.[/quote]

This isn't a lie. It's a very slippery use of wording.

We will supply you with skills (reading, technique, styles etc)

you must [b]go out and become[/b] a pro musician.

the onus is on the student to commit to a certain (i.e. huge) amount of the task. Most students don't. In any school or college, in any subject.

'The nature of the rain is the same but it produces grass in the meadow and thorns in the swamp.' A great eastern proverb.

And whoever wrote 'there are no bad students, only bad teachers' was obviously an awful student who needed someone else to blame.

The problem here really, is when it's sold like a weight loss pill, or nicorette. They write in tiny letters: 'requires willpower'

Hopefully, people will shop around, look for what's on offer, consider their options very carefully and choose a path that is good for them, with eyes wide open.

If someone just signs up to a course and expects the moon on a stick, then they are getting an expensive lesson in reality.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Davemarks

[Davemarks]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='116706' date='Jan 9 2008, 12:49 AM']Some very well expressed and quite profound thoughts that I have to agree with you on Dave and it's obvious you believe strongly in teaching as a good thing and, I definitely agree with you on that. I also agree with you that having guidance and help is good too - doesn't matter whether you're Mozart or McCartney; you had to be guided and inspired from someone or somewhere in the beginning.

And certainly one of the most recurring and depressing scenarios I used to encounter when I was an artist manager for 7 years, was that many very talented musicians/artists just weren't honest with themselves or willing to listen to other talented/experienced/supportive people in order to develop themselves and their talent. Usually, that led to them not fulfilling their potential, which was such a waste of talent..

But equally, as Jebo1 says:
[i]"The idea of musical tuition is something everyone here agrees with, I certainly benefited from being taught, and I'm sure everyone on here has had positive, illuminating and downright life-changing (in a musical sense) revelations from lessons. No-one denies this.

The problem is when music colleges try and sell to influential youngsters the idea that they can obtain all of the musical experience and skills they require to become a well paid (or at least financially solvent) professional musician from a college course taught by (in some cases at least) unsuccessful musicians. I think this is disingenous."[/i]

And maybe that Jebos1's point has hit the nail on the head because I suspect that neither the majority of musicians attending these courses nor the people who run them are really interested in the 'art' of it all - what they are really more interested in is the 'business' and the 'means to an end' of it all??[/quote]

one of the sad aspects of modern society. Everyone has a myspace. Everyone can get on TV. Everyone can play an instrument and become a musician... oops. No they can't.

Unfortunately lots of people have been raised to feel that they can be whatever they want, because no-one is allowed to write a bad reference or tell you what you can't do well. The power of bullshit mass media. I want it now. I don't want to have to work or wait. Make me awesome.

In education establishments all over the world they churn out millions of graduates. Some are passable. Most are good. A few are great. Very few will make a difference to their chosen trade / profession / artform.

I think in most cases the best a teacher can do is hope to make you 'good.'

To educe (the word we get educate from) means 'to bring out that which is within.' If you are not an artist (most people aren't - even good performers.. pop Idol anyone?) with an internal passion and drive to express something, then there is little a teacher can do, other than train you to be 'good' and hope that you find your way to that glorious lightbulb moment....

P.S - sorry if I appear to be ranting a lot on this topic. I'm thinking a lot these days about teaching and the processes that it entails. Been reading up and trying to improve and this debate has got my wheels turning....

Edited January 9, 2008 by Davemarks

[ARGH]

[quote name='Davemarks' post='116678' date='Jan 8 2008, 11:55 PM']Here...[/quote]

Thats out of context

[Thunderthumbs]

I do think an awful lot can come from the teacher. In any subject of a teaching profession, a key skill of a teacher is to be a leader, an inspiration.

I left school with a lot of respect for my music teacher. I wasn't at that time a flourishing pianist, trumpet or trombone player as some of my fellow pupils, and as such, a lot of my theory was simplified as I wasn't trying to overcomplicate everything as they appeared to be doing.

He didn't see this as a bad thing. He gave me the confidence to believe in myself as a musician, and liked the beauty of my simplicity.

He was an inspiration to me. But like Dave has said, the rest is down to me. He could only ever lead me so far. So for someone to believe that simply leaving a college with a certificate in any subject, let alone music, leads them onto greatness is foolish on their part.

There are bad pupils, and there are bad teachers, and it takes an awful lot of effort on both parts for there to be any modicum of success.

[ARGH]

[quote name='Thunderthumbs' post='116721' date='Jan 9 2008, 01:30 AM']I do think an awful lot can come from the teacher. In any subject of a teaching profession, a key skill of a teacher is to be a leader, an inspiration.

I left school with a lot of respect for my music teacher. I wasn't at that time a flourishing pianist, trumpet or trombone player as some of my fellow pupils, and as such, a lot of my theory was simplified as I wasn't trying to overcomplicate everything as they appeared to be doing.

He didn't see this as a bad thing. He gave me the confidence to believe in myself as a musician, and liked the beauty of my simplicity.

He was an inspiration to me. But like Dave has said, the rest is down to me. He could only ever lead me so far. So for someone to believe that simply leaving a college with a certificate in any subject, let alone music, leads them onto greatness is foolish on their part.

There are bad pupils, and there are bad teachers, and it takes an awful lot of effort on both parts for there to be any modicum of success.[/quote]


Mine said a wonderful comment about me when I was 16.

Cant read,CAN play!

.....Ive been working on the pair ever since

[alexclaber]

I think music tuition is a good thing, I'm just unconvinced that these modern music schools are the right way to deliver it. One on one tuition with a good tutor, plenty of individual learning/practising and then applying those skills in bands seems a more financially sensible and practical approach.

I hate to think of the self-obsessed and blinkered sub-culture created by a whole pile of late teen / early 20s wannabes thinking they're learning how to make a million by rocking out!

Alex

[Beedster]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='116794' date='Jan 9 2008, 09:31 AM']I think music tuition is a good thing, I'm just unconvinced that these modern music schools are the right way to deliver it. One on one tuition with a good tutor, plenty of individual learning/practising and then applying those skills in bands seems a more financially sensible and practical approach.
Alex[/quote]

+1

A couple of BCers above seem to think that some responses to this thread were negative about tuition per se, which I don't think is the case from my reading of the posts in question. One of the things about personal tuition is that it tends to be more inductive than formal education. That is, the teachers can evaluate the strengths, weakness, preferences, tastes, ambition etc of any specific individual and respond accordingly. All too often however, education at the institutional level does not allow this, or at least not to the degree that the domain probably warrants it. This leads to.....

STANDARDISATION

To reiterate my point above, in fields such as medicine and several related scientific disciplines - and possibly even orchestral musical performance - this is not usually a problem (in fact, such individualisation of subject might at times be undesirable in these areas). However, IMHO, in contemporary music performance, it probably is. In other words, the model of FE/HE that works for many traditional disciplines might not do so for some more contemporary ones.

Chris

Edited January 9, 2008 by Beedster

[composer]

I agree with you, and I think thats why events like www.bassmasterclass.com helps.
Well known artists who are brilliant teachers to encourage students to find their voice through applying new techniques.
check it out - let us know what you think.

[Guest TheBigBeefChief]

Speaking of which, there are hundreds of hot women who are performing on webcam right now at [i]<url deleted>[/i] for FREE! (T&C's apply)

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='jay249' post='116506' date='Jan 8 2008, 08:19 PM']The crappy and annoying academic side of it, paperwork and 'key skills' that colleges have to incorporate is also a huge pain in the ass, I spent the last 3 years at Access to Music, and while I only feel my biggest improvement in playing has been in the 6 or so months since I 'graduated' (and decided to get my ass in gear), but I could never discount it as a 'waste of time' or what anyone else is saying.

We only had an hour of instrumental tuition a week, which could never be enough, and about 4-6 hours using the rehearsal rooms.

No it hasn't prepared me for work in music, yes it has given me 3 years to doss about and play bass every day, and I'm playing in quality function/party/whatever bands, with people of twice my age/''experience'' and getting paid, and I'm teaching people to play bass, and getting paid, and all of this happened in the 6 months since i left, so It must have done something for me, even if it's just a bit of confidence of having it under my belt.[/quote]

Sooo would you recommend it to someone who wants to teach bass? Or should I save my money and spend the years practising by myself, jamming with mates and giggin in bands? I mean, I'd still be doing all of that on top of my studies, since it's what I do at the moment

[Beedster]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='116952' date='Jan 9 2008, 12:52 PM']Sooo would you recommend it to someone who wants to teach bass? Or should I save my money and spend the years practising by myself, jamming with mates and giggin in bands? I mean, I'd still be doing all of that on top of my studies, since it's what I do at the moment[/quote]

Teaching and performing are two different things. If you want to teach for a profession, your level of technical ability is not all that important, whereas your ability to observe a pupil, to evaluate and identify, to communicate, to motivate, inspire etc are. If you find a school that will train you specifically to be a bass teacher this would likely be a far better route that one which will train you to be a bass performer. They are two different skills.
Chris

[gilmour]

[quote name='Beedster' post='116960' date='Jan 9 2008, 01:05 PM']Teaching and performing are two different things. If you want to teach for a profession, your level of technical ability is not all that important, whereas your ability to observe a pupil, to evaluate and identify, to communicate, to motivate, inspire etc are. If you find a school that will train you specifically to be a bass teacher this would likely be a far better route that one which will train you to be a bass performer. They are two different skills.
Chris[/quote]

I couldn't agee with this more. I spend a lot of time working with Peripatetic (in school) instrument tutors, many of whom really get their backs up that they are expected to do some (1 or 2 days) training on teching/tuition methods. Oftne feeling that it is a question of their instrumental ability, and taking for granted that because they can play they can teach.

There is an interesting point on standardisation here, if you are delivering one on one or small group tuition should you have to do teaching qualifications/training? I'm not sure where I stand on that, but I do feel if you are partaking knowledge onto others, you should know how to do it, especially if it is in a school setting. You'd be surprised how many parents think that Peripatetic tutors are qualified, and also by how many aren't.

[gilmour]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='116952' date='Jan 9 2008, 12:52 PM']Sooo would you recommend it to someone who wants to teach bass? Or should I save my money and spend the years practising by myself, jamming with mates and giggin in bands? I mean, I'd still be doing all of that on top of my studies, since it's what I do at the moment[/quote]

If you are interested in Teaching an instrument then you should contact your local music service (probably through the council) many of whom provide traingin for instrumental tutors, and if they don;t they should. Also consider signing up to www.musicleader.net who provide free/reduced rate training for those wanting to work in music education (it might be England only)

If you want more info on either of these I have a string of links contacts etc. that I won't post but PM me and I'll be happy to pass some on.

[LukeFRC]

There are more folk doing uni level courses in photography in the UK this year than there are professional photographers in Europe.

[Beedster]

[quote name='gilmour' post='117016' date='Jan 9 2008, 02:32 PM']I couldn't agee with this more. I spend a lot of time working with Peripatetic (in school) instrument tutors, many of whom really get their backs up that they are expected to do some (1 or 2 days) training on teching/tuition methods. Oftne feeling that it is a question of their instrumental ability, and taking for granted that because they can play they can teach.

There is an interesting point on standardisation here, if you are delivering one on one or small group tuition should you have to do teaching qualifications/training? I'm not sure where I stand on that, but I do feel if you are partaking knowledge onto others, you should know how to do it, especially if it is in a school setting. You'd be surprised how many parents think that Peripatetic tutors are qualified, and also by how many aren't.[/quote]

Funnily enough, a lot can be learned from a bad teacher, or more correctly, one man's bad teacher is another man's good teacher. In selecting a private teacher, most of us I imagine would gravitate towards a teacher who works for us, irrespective of how well they have worked for others, a luxury often not afforded to those in institutional programes. Perhaps the point I'm making is that standardisation reduces variability, and perhaps results in many players/teachers becoming adept technically but mediocre in other respects, akin to the regression to the mean that is a sad but constant feature of other academic disciplines.

I also feel that to teach well you must be passionate about what you teach. In my discipline about 30% of students go on to take a PGCE, and about 75% of these do so because they see no choice, it's the only way they'll get a job related to their qualificattion (and by implication a decent salary). I'm not sure a passion for their subject will ever rub odd on their future students

Chris

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='117038' date='Jan 9 2008, 02:58 PM']There are more folk doing uni level courses in photography in the UK this year than there are professional photographers in Europe.[/quote]

oh dear... they've been sold a pup... the market for stock photos has collapsed... everyone and his dog's got a semi-decent camera in their phone so there's very little market for news photography either...

[Beedster]

[quote name='Paul Cooke' post='117087' date='Jan 9 2008, 03:56 PM']oh dear... they've been sold a pup... the market for stock photos has collapsed... everyone and his dog's got a semi-decent camera in their phone so there's very little market for news photography either...[/quote]

The photos my GF took at a recent wedding were better - focus, colour etc - than those taken by the official photographer. His weren't bad, it's just hers were better
Chris

[paul, the]

I just want to thank everyone for a really interesting read!


+1 to a one-on-one with a good tutor on a regular basis. That's assuming you're not one of the 0.1% that are a musical genius.



I'm a traditionalist, though. It wasn't really the case for me but I think music should be brought up in everyone as a part of life:





You've probably already seen this :

Edited January 9, 2008 by paul, the

[NickThomas]

[quote name='steve-norris' post='115807' date='Jan 7 2008, 09:46 PM']The collage i went to also taught bricklaying, they were taught the basics then how to do fancy stuff like spirals and arches etc. When they had finished this course they went out and built houses. Once you know the basic steps you can build something as high as you like.[/quote]

But when they can't reach any higher they have to get scaffold to get them to the next level.



Nick.

[bass_ferret]

All I know is this: If Jimi had gone to school they would have told him not to be so stupid and play the f***ing thing properly.

[composer]

perhaps alternatives to the education were talking about may be the answer. like bassmasterclass.com