What would be louder

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Conan' post='1025729' date='Nov 16 2010, 07:19 AM']Do we hear what we want/expect to hear?[/quote][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ[/url]

[dan670844]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1025852' date='Nov 16 2010, 01:39 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ[/url][/quote]


I like to hear what is coming out my bass thats why I use this on its side around one to three foot of the deck, flat response good dispersion, everything equally represented, no boom, no sag, just big square and and heavyish (22kgs) for a 2x10, but really great, but they don't make them anymore, I wish someone would have a go over here. A great sounding simple cab, for reasonable money, it will take anything a four stringer can chuck at it since this is all i play that great. The best thing is it doesnt have Neo speakers I don't like Neo speakers! ferrite any day!

The eden 210XST I think are also good for this its all you need

700watts rms 1400 peak is enough for any gig, it just doesnt look cool! but i completly get you point Bill

Edited November 16, 2010 by dan670844

[dan670844]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1026393' date='Nov 16 2010, 09:24 PM']I like to hear what is coming out my bass thats why I use this on its side around one to three foot of the deck, flat response good dispersion, everything equally represented, no boom, no sag, just big square and and heavyish (22kgs) for a 2x10, but really great, but they don't make them anymore, I wish someone would have a go over here. A great sounding simple cab, for reasonable money, it will take anything a four stringer can chuck at it since this is all i play that great. The best thing is it doesnt have Neo speakers I don't like Neo speakers! ferrite any day!

The eden 210XST I think are also good for this its all you need

700watts rms 1400 peak is enough for any gig, it just doesnt look cool! but i completly get you point Bill[/quote]


And i put a trace smx through this sometimes it sounds great!

[umph]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1025852' date='Nov 16 2010, 01:39 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ[/url][/quote]
great watching ta

[dincz]

[quote name='umph' post='1026951' date='Nov 17 2010, 04:19 PM']great watching ta[/quote]

It was indeed. Particularly liked "Sad Satan".

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1025453' date='Nov 16 2010, 03:51 AM']But to say that if one's using four tens that the only way it should be done is to put them into a typical 4x arrangement is to ignore an alternative that most players who have actually tried prefer.[/quote]
A bit of a strawman argument you're putting forward there, Bill, I’m afraid. Nobody is saying, or has said, that a 4x10 configuration is the only way it should be done.

I’ve nothing against stacking speakers myself. It gets the top one closer to ear height as Thom mentioned a while ago, and this is the main benefit of the configuration. However, as Protium also pointed out, the seven foot tall 8 x 10 highlights the shortcomings of insisting on a vertical layout no matter what. What counts is what works.

[xgsjx]

Why would you need an 8x10 tho?

[Dubs]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1028220' date='Nov 18 2010, 05:31 PM']Why would you need an 8x10 tho?[/quote]

Because they are the coolest.

The End.

[Protium]

[quote name='Dubs' post='1028229' date='Nov 18 2010, 05:38 PM']Because they are the coolest.

The End.[/quote]

Hi five!

[TimR]

[quote name='stevie' post='1027946' date='Nov 18 2010, 02:19 PM']...
I’ve nothing against stacking speakers myself. It gets the top one closer to ear height as Thom mentioned a while ago, and this is the main benefit of the configuration. However, as Protium also pointed out, the seven foot tall 8 x 10 highlights the shortcomings of insisting on a vertical layout no matter what. What counts is what works.[/quote]

How loud does an 8x10 'sound' compared to a 4x10 vertical stack?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='TimR' post='1030968' date='Nov 20 2010, 10:57 PM']How loud does an 8x10 'sound' compared to a 4x10 vertical stack?[/quote]

It's 1 louder

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='TimR' post='1030968' date='Nov 20 2010, 05:57 PM']How loud does an 8x10 'sound' compared to a 4x10 vertical stack?[/quote]That depends on the 8x10 and vertical 4x10 in question. Some vertical 4x10s have higher sensitivity and displacement limited output than some 8x10s, especially sealed 8x10s.
This is a maximum SPL plot of an SVT (blue) and a pair of 3 cu ft ported 2x10s loaded with Deltalite II 2510s (red). Where power/output demands are highest, from 41 to 65 Hz, the pair of 2x10s are louder.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[TimR]

Bill, you've really surprised me with that answer.

I'm going with 6-7dB using comparable cabs from the same manufacturer.

I suppose an experiment could be carried out with 4 2x10"s arranged in 2 1x4 speaker configurations. ie 2 vertical stacks of 2 2x10" next to each other and unplugging one pair to A-B the sound.

My guess is that the 6-7dB won't be that noticeable for most people. How many people use an 8x10" at full power?

[Conan]

[quote name='TimR' post='1031345' date='Nov 21 2010, 01:04 PM']My guess is that the 6-7dB won't be that noticeable for most people. How many people use an 8x10" at full power?[/quote]

I may be wrong here, but isn't the decibel scale logarithmic? Meaning that an increase in 10dB makes a sound 10 times louder? In which case, would 6-7 dB be a huge increase in perceived volume?

If I'm wrong of course, please ignore this b0ll0cks!!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='TimR' post='1031345' date='Nov 21 2010, 01:04 PM']How many people use an 8x10" at full power?[/quote]

I've farted out 8x10s. They don't like lows. Lesson is: Never use one 8x10.

[TimR]

[quote name='Conan' post='1031383' date='Nov 21 2010, 01:44 PM']I may be wrong here, but isn't the decibel scale logarithmic? Meaning that an increase in 10dB makes a sound 10 times louder? In which case, would 6-7 dB be a huge increase in perceived volume?

If I'm wrong of course, please ignore this b0ll0cks!! [/quote]

3dB is double the SPL. 10dB is consdiered double the apparent volume, but subjective. The numbers are meaningless as it depends on the frequencies.

[umph]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1031444' date='Nov 21 2010, 02:54 PM']I've farted out 8x10s. They don't like lows. Lesson is: Never use one 8x10.[/quote]
8X10's are doom unless you have 3 or 4 of them

[TimR]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1031444' date='Nov 21 2010, 02:54 PM']I've farted out 8x10s. They don't like lows. Lesson is: Never use one 8x10.[/quote]

Sealed or ported?

[stevie]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1030994' date='Nov 20 2010, 11:18 PM']It's 1 louder[/quote]

[ThomBassmonkey]

I've looked through this thread, but I can't see specifically what the problem caused by horizontally placed speakers is. Also, why wouldn't it affect veritcally placed speakers?

I can see horizontal dispersion mentioned a few times (caused by phase cancellation? That's probably wrong, but it's just my guess ), but I don't see there being a big issue with that anyway, most gigs have monitoring and bass is usually either DI'd or mic'd, neither of which rely on dispersion. Plus bass amps are far more omnidirectional than, say, guitar amps anyway.

I upgraded from a 700RB-II into 2x 210RBH cabs to a 2001RB-II with one 410RBH, so I'm basically using the same head (with a larger power amp, which could affect things) into 4 10" speakers, but moved from vertically alligned 4x10 to a standard 4x10 configuration, using the same brand and series of cabs. If anything, I'd say that the cabs sound fatter now (though that could be with the bigger power section in my head), but I put that down to there being a single large "box" instead of two smaller ones.

Excuse my ignorance, I'm happy with my amp regardless and I can't see myself going back to using 2 2x10s (especially after my other cab shows up) but I'm curious about the physics behind it.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1031923' date='Nov 21 2010, 04:24 PM']I've looked through this thread, but I can't see specifically what the problem caused by horizontally placed speakers is.[/quote]
Dispersion is inversely proportional to the dimension of the radiating plane. Horizontal dispersion of two drivers placed horizontally is half that of two drivers placed vertically. Explained in great detail here:
[url="http://www.gtaust.com/filter/06/08.shtml"]http://www.gtaust.com/filter/06/08.shtml[/url]

Edited November 21, 2010 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[dincz]

Vertically dispersed audiences tend to work well with side-by-side speakers.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Ok, I still don't understand the physics (it's been a long couple of days), but I'll take your word for it. Is it fair to assume that the same equasions work for the vertical as well as the horizontal?

I still wonder how much of an issue it is though, especially with an instrument like bass that is less directional (or more directional, depending on how you think of it) than trebly instrument. In a small venue, there's probably always going to be enough people too close to the stage and not getting a proper sound anyway. In larger venues there should be PA support (which would make the dispersion of the bass amp irrelevant unless you really have it cranked and it's affecting the sound out front) or people would be stood far enough back that they'd be within it's dispersion anyway.

Anyway, I'm a bit out of my depth so I'm going to just keep an eye as other people who have a better understanding discuss.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='dincz' post='1031980' date='Nov 21 2010, 10:15 PM']Vertically dispersed audiences tend to work well with side-by-side speakers.[/quote]



It did cross my mind actually that in terms of on stage monitoring, horizontally places speakers could be an advantage for the better vertical dispersion (hence my question in the first line of my last post). Maybe whoever posted earlier (apologies on forgetting who it was) saying that they put their 2x10 horizontally on a table is on to something!

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1031064' date='Nov 21 2010, 12:30 AM'][b]Where power/output demands are highest, from 41 to 65 Hz,[/b] the pair of 2x10s are louder.[/quote]

This in bold is a rather sweeping statement, and I would definitely question its validity. Look again at that graph, and this time look at 65 to ~150 Hz. Think about a 4-string bass guitar. Bottom E fundamental at 40, 1st harmonic 80. How much 40Hz in that E, compared to 80Hz? We're not talking synthesisers here. Play up the bottom octave and ask the same question. Obviously it depends on the pickup placement, type, the bass etc etc. Nonetheless despite the fact that power demands are so high down there, it doesn't necessarily mean that you need a lot thanks to the harmonic balance of a bass guitar's output.

Most ported cabs have a dip around the first harmonics of the lower notes (anywhere around 80-120ish?) I'd bet that when cabs fart out it's these harmonics that are causing the trouble just as often as the low fundamentals. It'll depend on the tonal goals of the player. Bill's graph tells you nothing about the mid-range response (of course if the Deltalites are significantly more sensitive then the twin 2x10s might win out there). A big boost at 40Hz does sound fat, but it's not the 'natural' tone of most bass guitars.

My point is not that one cab is better than the other. Instead, I mean that even just in the loudness stakes, which is better depends on what you're asking it to do. And regarding tone, if loudness weren't an issue most designers wouldn't even use porting.