What would be louder

[Mykesbass]

If I can ask an additional, related question, if an amp with two speaker outputs runs at X at 4 ohms or Y at 8 ohms, if you run one 4 ohm speaker will you get x or do you need to run two 8 ohm speakers?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Mykesbass' post='1014568' date='Nov 6 2010, 05:57 PM']If I can ask an additional, related question, if an amp with two speaker outputs runs at X at 4 ohms or Y at 8 ohms, if you run one 4 ohm speaker will you get x or do you need to run two 8 ohm speakers?[/quote]

You will get X.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1014312' date='Nov 6 2010, 10:41 AM']why make a vertical 4x10 which would stuggle to be transported when most people (myself included) would go for 2 2x10s[/quote]
My preference would be for the two 2x10s, but there are those who prefer a high cab that's essentially its own dolly for wheeling about, and don't mind the weight when stairs are encountered. For them a tall 4x10 would be the ticket, but I wouldn't hold my breath in anticipation of ever seeing one. An option would be a pair of dedicated 2x10s with wheels on one, a top handle on the other, and clamps to tie them together for wheeling about. The clamps would also ease concerns about stability on stage.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1013880' date='Nov 5 2010, 11:51 PM']note the comment by the previous poster being concerned about how they look without a word mentioned about how they'd sound.[/quote]

Perhaps I should've said "were wobbly" instead of "looked wobbly". I would be worried that two cabs stacked in the tallest, narrowest configuration with a head on top would *BE* wobbly, not that they wouldn't look rock and roll enough for me.

FTR I gig with a little Schroeder 2x12 cab.

[Protium]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1014685' date='Nov 6 2010, 07:43 PM']Perhaps I should've said "were wobbly" instead of "looked wobbly". I would be worried that two cabs stacked in the tallest, narrowest configuration with a head on top would *BE* wobbly, not that they wouldn't look rock and roll enough for me.[/quote]

+1
Top heavy mixed with a dodgy stage/pissed punters in the pub/hyperactive guitarist = disaster waiting to happen.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1014591' date='Nov 6 2010, 06:19 PM']You will get X.[/quote]

Thanks (but that means my rig is not loud enough )

[xgsjx]

But X with 2 8 ohm cabs is usually considerably louder than X with 1 of the same cabs that's 4 ohm.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1013283' date='Nov 5 2010, 01:32 PM']Drivers should always be vertically arrayed.[/quote]
A vertical column is quite often not the best way of arranging multiple drivers, particularly bass drivers.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Stacking drivers vertically means that it brings the speakers nearer to ear height so the player is more likely to get a clearer sound on stage due to getting more treble (at least that's my understanding of it).

As for them being wobbly, most cabs have stacking corners now, my gallien 210RBHs were very stable stacked vertically, I always checked to make sure the ground was flat, but there was never enough give to make me concerned.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1012860' date='Nov 5 2010, 03:19 AM']You mean stacking the 2x10s on their narrow ends? Anyone ever done this and not worried a bit about how wobbly it looked?[/quote]
Not quite a true array, but still shallow and tall - I've never had any problems with this:

[ThomBassmonkey]

Here's a pic of mine (properly vertically alligned speakers instead of that wonky gubbins), it never once collapsed into a big pile of dust!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stevie' post='1015105' date='Nov 7 2010, 06:28 AM']A vertical column is quite often not the best way of arranging multiple drivers, particularly bass drivers.[/quote]One can run drivers horizontal so long as their center to center distance is less than one wavelength within the pass band. This basic law of acoustical engineering is almost universally ignored by the electric bass cab industry. (I doubt most manufacturers are even aware of it.) Drivers offset on the diagonal can sometimes come close, though.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[howieee]

i was gigging with a 300watt valve head with 410 and 115 cabs. i recently acquired an 810 aswell. i linked it all up (...c`mon who wouldn't!!!...) and it wasnt much louder to be honest.... but there was DEFINITELY tonnes more presence. bass was everywhere. (this was in a decent sized school hall.)

it was much easier to get an even sound and a nice smooth sound as i didn't need to push the amp whatsoever!

if it was me.....

id personally go for more cabs... as it will be easier to achieve the sound you want at a nice volume without having to really push the amp. (....and on the plus side it looks cool ...)

i hope this helps!

[Mr Rabble]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' post='1011306' date='Nov 3 2010, 09:22 PM']A single 15 pushes more air than 2x10s ,as it has more surface area,so 2x10 + 1x15 should seem louder[/quote]

2x10" have more surface area than a single 15"

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr Rabble' post='1020054' date='Nov 11 2010, 08:53 AM']2x10" have more surface area than a single 15"[/quote]They don't, but it's moot. Research [i]displacement limited output[/i].

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1015533' date='Nov 7 2010, 06:47 PM']One can run drivers horizontal so long as their center to center distance is less than one wavelength within the pass band. This basic law of acoustical engineering is almost universally ignored by the electric bass cab industry. (I doubt most manufacturers are even aware of it.)[/quote]
That’s a bit different from “drivers should always be vertically arrayed” then.

As to positioning drivers less than one wavelength apart, a one wavelength rule is hardly a basic law of acoustical engineering because interdriver positioning depends very much on what you’re trying to achieve. Bass cab companies seem happy with two wavelengths spacing (as in a 4 x 10). And since most bass players seem to agree with them, perhaps they’re not so ignorant after all.

[Stan_da_man]

Jesus, no wonder Alex stopped posting... I wouldn't be surprised if Bill went the same way.

[Musicman20]

Both veritical and horizontal...I like them both.

Cant beat a quality high end 4x10 for some gigs. IMO and IME.

[E sharp]

[quote name='Stan_da_man' post='1021594' date='Nov 12 2010, 03:44 PM']Jesus, no wonder Alex stopped posting... I wouldn't be surprised if Bill went the same way.[/quote]
I'm in no doubt that Alex and Bill know more about this that I will ever get my head around , but Stevie surely has a point .

If 4x10 cabs are wrong , then why do people keep buying them . If it sounds crap , then we wouldn't use them , even if the badge says Berg,Epi or whatever .

[redroque]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1021627' date='Nov 12 2010, 05:16 PM']Cant beat a quality high end 4x10 for some gigs. IMO and IME.[/quote]

Whatever cabs you have, if you like the sound, great. However, if your playing gigs too much bigger than your bedroom, it'll be DI'd from the bass anyway and no one will hear the cabs unless your mighty big and can mic the cabs effectively.
I s'pose you could take the route of being so loud you drown the rest of the band but then the band would sound horrible.

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='E sharp' post='1021822' date='Nov 12 2010, 07:03 PM']I'm in no doubt that Alex and Bill know more about this that I will ever get my head around , but Stevie surely has a point .

If 4x10 cabs are wrong , then why do people keep buying them . If it sounds crap , then we wouldn't use them , even if the badge says Berg,Epi or whatever .[/quote]
I don't think it's a question of 4x10s being wrong, so much as other alternatives being potentially better, if applied correctly. The crucial practical question is: How much better, and in which areas? Enough to matter? Matter to whom?

A vertical array of 2 2x10s would give an more even lateral spread of sound, without interference peaks and troughs as you traverse across the width of the playing area. The audience may be affected, but you might not notice up on stage. The audience may not notice or care though of course, but for certain types of music they may. Your fellow band members may appreciate the better dispersion of sound as well, but if they can already hear you clearly enough - where's the problem?

People keep buying 4x10s because they are a compromise that is probably good enough most of the time. I'd be interested in doing some listening tests with a couple of 2x10s just to see what differences we could be talking about here. Sounds like a job for a future Bass Bash.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote]Jesus, no wonder Alex stopped posting... I wouldn't be surprised if Bill went the same way.[/quote]
I'll continue to post for the benefit of those who are interested in learning how speakers work. I won't argue with those who aren't. In light of the fact that stevie clearly has no interest in anything but arguing I've put him on my ignore list.
[quote]If 4x10 cabs are wrong , then why do people keep buying them[/quote]Because they don't know that the configuration is flawed.
[quote]Bass cab companies seem happy with two wavelengths spacing (as in a 4 x 10).[/quote]Bass cab companies are like all companies. They're happy with anything that sells.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Bassnut62]

what was the question?!!!

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1022131' date='Nov 13 2010, 03:57 AM']I'll continue to post for the benefit of those who are interested in learning how speakers work. I won't argue with those who aren't.[/quote]

Thanks Bill. I enjoy the benefit of your wisdom.
Keep up the good work.

Jon

[thinman]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='1021863' date='Nov 12 2010, 07:47 PM']I don't think it's a question of 4x10s being wrong, so much as other alternatives being potentially better, if applied correctly. The crucial practical question is: How much better, and in which areas? Enough to matter? Matter to whom?

A vertical array of 2 2x10s would give an more even lateral spread of sound, without interference peaks and troughs as you traverse across the width of the playing area. The audience may be affected, but you might not notice up on stage. The audience may not notice or care though of course, but for certain types of music they may. Your fellow band members may appreciate the better dispersion of sound as well, but if they can already hear you clearly enough - where's the problem?

People keep buying 4x10s because they are a compromise that is probably good enough most of the time. I'd be interested in doing some listening tests with a couple of 2x10s just to see what differences we could be talking about here. Sounds like a job for a future Bass Bash.[/quote]


I think this is an excellent point - I was thinking something similar before I saw this post. There's always the debate here about optimum speaker design, mixing driver sizes etc and a lot of people don't seem to get the point that if they are happy with what they've got then that's fine but it shouldn't be confused with being an optimum design. A 4 x 10" may well perform to someone's liking but as Bill Fitzmaurice points out there's better ways of using 4 10" drivers.