What would be louder

[Conan]

In many cases, isn't it simply that people prefer what they are used to? Anything that sounds different - even if it is technically "better" - sounds "wrong" to their ears?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Conan' post='1024298' date='Nov 15 2010, 04:19 AM']In many cases, isn't it simply that people prefer what they are used to? Anything that sounds different - even if it is technically "better" - sounds "wrong" to their ears?[/quote]
Most players buy with their eyes, not their ears. What's the number one comment made about new gear? [i]That looks good, I need to have one![/i]
The contents of this video says much about how the eyes tend to overrule the ears. Pay particular attention to the 'tube amp versus SS amp switch' experiment.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ[/url]

[Mog]

I'm VERY confused now.... So what would people suggest as a powerful rig? Say for a venue that holds 800-1000. I'd normally bring two 4x10's. One for each side of the stage, a guitar cab would usually be stacked on top of the bass cab.
I'm liking the idea of 2x12's lately.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mog' post='1024716' date='Nov 15 2010, 10:08 AM']One for each side of the stage[/quote]
Spreading cabs is a very bad idea. This explains why; it specifically addresses PA sub placement, but the same rules apply to electric bass.
[url="http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_search_of_the_power_alley/"]http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_sear...he_power_alley/[/url]

As for what you need, the job of backline is to handle the stage. I wouldn't dream of playing to more than 300 seats without full PA.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[stevie]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='1021863' date='Nov 12 2010, 08:47 PM']I don't think it's a question of 4x10s being wrong, so much as other alternatives being potentially better, if applied correctly. The crucial practical question is: How much better, and in which areas? Enough to matter? Matter to whom?[/quote]
+1 Shergold. A very sensible post and a good summing up of how things are in the real world. I think the Bass Bash idea is an excellent one.
Interestingly (or not, as the case may be), there is an almost identical thread running at the moment on Talkbass, with BF trying with mixed success to blunder everyone into submission by the frequency of his posts. KJung in particular has some interesting things to say.
Gluttons for punishment should go here (but don't say I didn't warn you): [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=710206"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=710206[/url]

[dan670844]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1022131' date='Nov 13 2010, 03:57 AM']I'll continue to post for the benefit of those who are interested in learning how speakers work. I won't argue with those who aren't.
Because they don't know that the configuration is flawed.
Bass cab companies are like all companies. They're happy with anything that sells.[/quote]


What I want to know is where is everyone gigging!? I normally use a 2x10 with Emmy deltas with 56oz magnets i can push 700 watts rms into it, I use a 1500watt amp! it has good low end with some low compression and great highs as its got a nice tweater. Its all i will ever need for stage monitoring and and i played some pretty big venues. it will easy cope with no pa support as well. I tend to compress my lows and cut everything below 50hz. I no longer feel the need to go deaf!

[Mog]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1024750' date='Nov 15 2010, 03:38 PM']Spreading cabs is a very bad idea. This explains why; it specifically addresses PA sub placement, but the same rules apply to electric bass.
[url="http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_search_of_the_power_alley/"]http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_sear...he_power_alley/[/url]

As for what you need, the job of backline is to handle the stage. I wouldn't dream of playing to more than 300 seats without full PA.[/quote]

Its just for monitoring for the guitarist as some of the stages can be very wide. Maybe 18-20 feet between stacks. I only run a 150 watt head so theres not much chance of bleed into the FOH feed. Loads of power IMO. Even in medium sized clubs the PA does all my grunt work. I'm not into the whole 1k bass head thing. Just dont get it?

[dincz]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1024619' date='Nov 15 2010, 02:47 PM']Most players buy with their eyes, not their ears. What's the number one comment made about new gear? [i]That looks good, I need to have one![/i]
The contents of this video says much about how the eyes tend to overrule the ears. Pay particular attention to the 'tube amp versus SS amp switch' experiment.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ[/url][/quote]

Also says much about faith in general. Particularly liked the "Sad Satan" bit starting at 07:15

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mog' post='1025136' date='Nov 15 2010, 03:16 PM']Its just for monitoring for the guitarist as some of the stages can be very wide. Maybe 18-20 feet between stacks. I only run a 150 watt head so theres not much chance of bleed into the FOH feed. Loads of power IMO. Even in medium sized clubs the PA does all my grunt work. I'm not into the whole 1k bass head thing. Just dont get it?[/quote]
Put one cab on the floor aimed at the guitar player. What he can't hear are your directional mids, and with your extension placed below his it's not doing much good there anyway, most pass him by at the knees. Put the other cab atop the first, aimed at you.

[Protium]

[quote name='E sharp' post='1021822' date='Nov 12 2010, 07:03 PM']If 4x10 cabs are wrong , then why do people keep buying them . If it sounds crap , then we wouldn't use them , even if the badge says Berg,Epi or whatever .[/quote]

+1, the ABM410 I had was the best cab I've owned/played through, the sound I wanted was just there and I got nothing but compliments about how good it sounded. Not a bad result for a cab that is "wrong"...

Edited November 15, 2010 by Protium

[Stewart]

All of this audio stuff is a compromise, but some things are 'easy wins' or (even more ghastly...) 'low-hanging fruit'...

For example sticking your rig as close to the back wall, as near to a corner as possible will considerably improve your output - why would you NOT want to do that?

Another example would be using cabs with (ideally) identical drivers closely vertically aligned, which will considerably improve your horizontal dispersion (that's left to right in non-tech speak) - why would you NOT want to do that?

[thinman]

[quote name='Protium' post='1025289' date='Nov 15 2010, 10:34 PM']+1, the ABM410 I had was the best cab I've owned/played through, the sound I wanted was just there and I got nothing but compliments about how good it sounded. Not a bad result for a cab that is "wrong"... [/quote]

I think the point is that such a cab is not "wrong" if you're happy with the result. The point here is that the same 4 drivers could be better used in a better cabs/configuration. Some great things can happen through a happy accident but consistency is usually achieved through science.

[Mog]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1025266' date='Nov 15 2010, 10:10 PM']Put one cab on the floor aimed at the guitar player. What he can't hear are your directional mids, and with your extension placed below his it's not doing much good there anyway, most pass him by at the knees. Put the other cab atop the first, aimed at you.[/quote]
sounds like a plan, i'll give it a go on thursday night.

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='Stewart' post='1025306' date='Nov 15 2010, 11:00 PM']All of this audio stuff is a compromise, but some things are 'easy wins' or (even more ghastly...) 'low-hanging fruit'...

For example sticking your rig as close to the back wall, as near to a corner as possible will considerably improve your output - why would you NOT want to do that?

Another example would be using cabs with (ideally) identical drivers closely vertically aligned, which will considerably improve your horizontal dispersion (that's left to right in non-tech speak) - why would you NOT want to do that?[/quote]

+1

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Stewart' post='1025306' date='Nov 15 2010, 06:00 PM']- why would you NOT want to do that?[/quote]
There are two primary reasons why things are done as they always have been: 'It's how we've always done it' and 'It's the only way we know how to do it'. Those who open their minds sufficiently to allow for alteration of the latter don't have to forever conform to the former.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Stewart' post='1025306' date='Nov 15 2010, 11:00 PM']Another example would be using cabs with (ideally) identical drivers closely vertically aligned, which will considerably improve your horizontal dispersion (that's left to right in non-tech speak) - why would you NOT want to do that?[/quote]

There are reasons why horizontal dispersion is not always desirable. If you check the photos of my old band, you'll see the guitarist is generally hiding round the corner somewhere, because he uses his position relative to his speakers to control his feedback dynamics, additionally, the more of my midrange he can hear, the more he is inclined to turn his up louder. 4x12s are considerably worse than 4x10 bass cabs, because they are wider, and more oriented towards midrange where that sort of thing matters. "Improve" isn't the word, alter yes, but it depends on what you want to achieve.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1025384' date='Nov 16 2010, 12:41 AM']There are two primary reasons why things are done as they always have been: 'It's how we've always done it' and 'It's the only way we know how to do it'. Those who open their minds sufficiently to allow for alteration of the latter don't have to forever conform to the former.[/quote]

I appreciate your expertise Bill (in fact I bought your 2x10 schematic last year but I haven't yet built one) but for me if it is loud enough to be clean and heard on-stage without turning out all manner of horrific flub and nonsense, and I can carry it in to and out of my first-floor flat on my own, and it fits in my compact car along with everything else I need to move (which often includes a double bass) then it is probably the best speaker cab for me. And my 2x12 Schroeder actually does all that, regardless of how flawed - theoretically - the design may be.

I certainly don't feel that I'm doing anything this way because it's the way I've always done it. Prior to this cab I have been a slave to spine-destroying 4x10 cabs and a horrifically heavy (and not particularly pleasant-sounding) 2x15 cab that had each speaker firing opposite directions, that I loaned for a tour once and instantly regretted.

If you say that two twelves stacked vertically would be better than what I've got now then I am not going to disagree with you, but it wouldn't fit in my car. I haven't yet felt like I was lacking anything that could be provided in the same volume of boot space.

Edited November 16, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1025404' date='Nov 15 2010, 08:25 PM']If you say that two twelves stacked vertically would be better than what I've got now.[/quote]Not better, different. Whether that different is better or worse for you only you can judge. But to say that if one's using four tens that the only way it should be done is to put them into a typical 4x arrangement is to ignore an alternative that most players who have actually tried prefer.

[Conan]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1025453' date='Nov 16 2010, 03:51 AM']Not better, different. Whether that different is better or worse for you only you can judge.[/quote]

Sounds like agreement to me! That's the key isn't it. At the end of the day, it's the individual who pays the money that decides on what they want and why. There will always be others who say "you should have bought X or Y instead, and let me tell you why...". There is plenty of choice and if the purchaser like the choice they made and can live with it then surely that's enough.

Just to clarify by further muddying the waters - I now possess two 2x15 cabinets. They sound (to me) [i]totally[/i] different. Both are regarded as good quality items. Both are large, but quite different in shape. The speakers they contain have a diameter of fifteen inches (I assume, I haven't measured them) but there the similarity ends.

Anyone who suggests that fifteens (or tens, twelves or whatever) have a "sound", should try making such a direct comparison. It was pretty enlightening! Problem is that I can't afford to keep both, so I need to decide which one I prefer the sound of! Apples and pears...

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Conan' post='1025482' date='Nov 16 2010, 08:04 AM']Sounds like agreement to me! That's the key isn't it. At the end of the day, it's the individual who pays the money that decides on what they want and why. There will always be others who say "you should have bought X or Y instead, and let me tell you why...". There is plenty of choice and if the purchaser like the choice they made and can live with it then surely that's enough.

Just to clarify by further muddying the waters - I now possess two 2x15 cabinets. They sound (to me) [i]totally[/i] different. Both are regarded as good quality items. Both are large, but quite different in shape. The speakers they contain have a diameter of fifteen inches (I assume, I haven't measured them) but there the similarity ends.

Anyone who suggests that fifteens (or tens, twelves or whatever) have a "sound", should try making such a direct comparison. It was pretty enlightening! Problem is that I can't afford to keep both, so I need to decide which one I prefer the sound of! Apples and pears...[/quote]

Don't be a fool! Sell the TE (note i'm a traceaddict!) and keep the Vintage! You know your back deserves it!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' post='1025574' date='Nov 16 2010, 10:04 AM']Don't be a fool! Sell the TE (note i'm a traceaddict!) and keep the Vintage! You know your back deserves it! [/quote]

Sometimes though, the extra weight is worth it if you want that Trace sound!

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1025587' date='Nov 16 2010, 10:14 AM']Sometimes though, the extra weight is worth it if you want that Trace sound![/quote]

I know, until recently i was gigging with a 300W head/2x10"+H/1x15" rig! It could easily take out any military tank but retaining sound quality! At home, for practise, i have a Boxer15 and it always amazed me how close the tone of the boxer was to it's big brother. Absolutely thick but somehow defined tone!

Now i'm moving to a STL 9.0/STL-12T rig... i know my ears will feel the difference in the first weeks but my back will definitely appreciate the improval

Cheers

[Conan]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1025587' date='Nov 16 2010, 10:14 AM']Sometimes though, the extra weight is worth it if you want that Trace sound![/quote]

Ah, but what [i]is[/i] "that Trace sound"? With a 7/11/12 band graphic at the very least (not to mention various combinations of compressors, valves and so on...) the sound-shaping capabilities are enormous. So how can a whole range of amps/cabs/combos have "a sound"?

Having said that, I know exactly what you mean! Is it all about suggestibility? Do we hear what we want/expect to hear?

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Conan' post='1025729' date='Nov 16 2010, 12:19 PM']Ah, but what [i]is[/i] "that Trace sound"? With a 7/11/12 band graphic at the very least (not to mention various combinations of compressors, valves and so on...) the sound-shaping capabilities are enormous. So how can a whole range of amps/cabs/combos have "a sound"?

Having said that, I know exactly what you mean! Is it all about suggestibility? Do we hear what we want/expect to hear?[/quote]

True but still they do! Nothing sounds like a Trace but they all (my boxer included ) share a similar/familiar feel/vibe/tone and everyone (well... at least some) would recognize one from the distance without a doubt!

[Musicman20]

Even the Trace combos (the smaller ones as well) have that signature sound. I havent played the recent gear mind!

Maybe it is what we expect to hear? I think their cabs must 'colour' the sound to a Trace way is some form Sounds great.