Live Situation Synth + Drums + Arpegiators

[elephantstone]

Didnt really knwo where to put this so feel free to move it mods.

Bit of background: i play in a 6 piece electronic/indie kinda band. We have 2 Guitarits, synth player, drummer, bass, and singer.

We have been rehearsing new material that consists of having a lot of arpigiated synth parts along with lead synth parts.

Problem: it is extremely hard for the drummer to keep in close to exact time with the arpegiator with everything going on at the same time.

we are looing into getting a feed from the synth into headfones for the drummer, this way he can hear the synth direct and drum along.

Am i right in saying that we could take a lead from the midi output of the synth plug it into some sort of headphone amp then in turn to quality headphones????

would this be the right solution or am i completely wrong?

ES

[tauzero]

[quote name='elephantstone' post='1011874' date='Nov 4 2010, 11:52 AM']Am i right in saying that we could take a lead from the midi output of the synth plug it into some sort of headphone amp then in turn to quality headphones????

would this be the right solution or am i completely wrong?[/quote]
No, not from the MIDI output, that will be outputting MIDI signals. Has the synth got a headphone output?

[Legion]

[quote name='elephantstone' post='1011874' date='Nov 4 2010, 11:52 AM']Didnt really knwo where to put this so feel free to move it mods.

Bit of background: i play in a 6 piece electronic/indie kinda band. We have 2 Guitarits, synth player, drummer, bass, and singer.

We have been rehearsing new material that consists of having a lot of arpigiated synth parts along with lead synth parts.

Problem: it is extremely hard for the drummer to keep in close to exact time with the arpegiator with everything going on at the same time.

we are looing into getting a feed from the synth into headfones for the drummer, this way he can hear the synth direct and drum along.

Am i right in saying that we could take a lead from the midi output of the synth plug it into some sort of headphone amp then in turn to quality headphones????

would this be the right solution or am i completely wrong?

ES[/quote]
I am in a similar situation, except we are going to be looking for a drummer (currently drummerless) who can handle this sort of thing so I'll be interested to hear what sort of replies there are about dealing with getting a click track to a drummer so he has something more solid to lock onto.

[Muppet]

Given that all you need is for your drummer to clearly hear your synth player then you've a number of options, I think. You can take a monitor feed from your desk if you've got one spare that's just got synth in it and send via headphones/wireless monitors to your drummer, or using a mini mixer, take a feed out from your synth and route it to a set of headphones for your drummer. Using the MIDI signal won't work as you've got nothing in the chain to interpret the MIDI.

If your issue is mainly timing the drummer to the arpeggio then you could just send a click to the drummers headphones/earpiece instead.

[xilddx]

Same advice from me too, ensure the drummer has what he needs in his sidefill, or give him/her headphones.

[BigRedX]

I take it that the timing for the arpeggios are being auto-generated from holding down full chords on the keyboard? Otherwise the keyboard player should just play in time with the drummer like everyone else.

If that's the case you may find that the sounds you want to use don't lend themselves particularly well to being the main time-setting element and therefore you should look at getting something that will generate a rhythmic sound that the drummer will find easier to follow, such as using a drum machine. Use this to provide the master clock for the arpeggios and a click for the drummer to play to (in headphones is best but not necessarily essential).

In the end there is not "right" way of doing this only what works best for you as a band. Experiment to find out what works best for you, and remember to keep it simple and quick to set up in the typical live situation, where if stuff can go wrong it will.

Also a point to bear in mind is that some drummers are simply incapable of not being the one setting the timing of the song. No matter what you give them to play to they simply can't do it because they are so used to being the one that everyone else in the band takes the time cues from.

[elephantstone]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1011897' date='Nov 4 2010, 12:08 PM']No, not from the MIDI output, that will be outputting MIDI signals. Has the synth got a headphone output?[/quote]

Yes it does have a headphone output.


[quote name='BigRedX' post='1011994' date='Nov 4 2010, 01:08 PM']I take it that the timing for the arpeggios are being auto-generated from holding down full chords on the keyboard? Otherwise the keyboard player should just play in time with the drummer like everyone else.

Also a point to bear in mind is that some drummers are simply incapable of not being the one setting the timing of the song. No matter what you give them to play to they simply can't do it because they are so used to being the one that everyone else in the band takes the time cues from.[/quote]

Yes the arpeggios are auto-generated from holding down full chords on the keyboard.


he is a very capable drummer, and can keep intime, but as you know some venues are not the best and the set up can vary from place to place and sometimes there will be no drum monitor etc etc etc.

we want to keep it as simple as possible that we can turn up to a gig and set up quickly and not have to bother.

right so, we can take a feed from the headphone output, run it into a headphone amp to amplify the signal and then into headphones???

we are planning on heading into town (Glasgow) on saturday to get an idea and buy what we need so any suggestions of gear and solutions are welcome.

ES

[DanOwens]

In my experience (and this is what my band do) the best way to do this properly is with a discontinued Yamaha Clickstation. It has a Midi In and so can sync to a Midi Clock.

If your synth sends Clock, then great, otherwise, invest in a box that does (such as this SR16 [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=107953"]HERE[/url]). That box can send Midi Clock to the drummer's metronome and to any synths in the band.


My entire band are midi sync'd. Drummer's click (and delays on the electronic components of his kit), my tremolos, delays and filter sequences and our synth player's arps are all sync'd together, meaning we're so tight. It's needed for what we do, and for what you're trying to do.

Dan

[elephantstone]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1012135' date='Nov 4 2010, 02:55 PM']In my experience (and this is what my band do) the best way to do this properly is with a discontinued Yamaha Clickstation. It has a Midi In and so can sync to a Midi Clock.

If your synth sends Clock, then great, otherwise, invest in a box that does (such as this SR16 [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=107953"]HERE[/url]). That box can send Midi Clock to the drummer's metronome and to any synths in the band.


My entire band are midi sync'd. Drummer's click (and delays on the electronic components of his kit), my tremolos, delays and filter sequences and our synth player's arps are all sync'd together, meaning we're so tight. It's needed for what we do, and for what you're trying to do.

Dan[/quote]


excellent man, not quite sure i understand though, MIDI clock???

so for being a dumbass but could you talk me through it?

[cheddatom]

I've been playing drums to a click recently. I have the click in my headphones and keep one ear off. The rest is just like a normal band practise.

[elephantstone]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1012171' date='Nov 4 2010, 03:22 PM']I've been playing drums to a click recently. I have the click in my headphones and keep one ear off. The rest is just like a normal band practise.[/quote]

yeah but: if in one song the arpegios are set to x bpm and in the next song they are set to y bpm, does the click chick automatically?

cheers man

ES

[tauzero]

[quote name='elephantstone' post='1012106' date='Nov 4 2010, 02:35 PM']Yes it does have a headphone output.[/quote]
Just plug some headphones into the headphone output then. See if that's any good for the drummer. If not, you'll need a different approach, but (assuming someone's got some headphones) this experiment doesn't actually require any equipment to be purchased.

[cheddatom]

if the synth/keyboard you're using can't generate a click track, then no. I doubt it would to be fair. It might have a MIDI clock which you could then connect to some sort of drum machine or standalone click generator.

You know what would be cool. A metronome with tap tempo input!

[elephantstone]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1012200' date='Nov 4 2010, 03:48 PM']Just plug some headphones into the headphone output then. See if that's any good for the drummer. If not, you'll need a different approach, but (assuming someone's got some headphones) this experiment doesn't actually require any equipment to be purchased.[/quote]


yeah man, we have tried this but it wasnt loud enough, so the synth volume had to be turned and therefore was too loud compared to the rest of the band, thus rendering the experient useless.

Although, thats where my thoughts about the headfone amp came from:

Synth headfone output>headfone amp>headfones????

that simple??


does the synth player having two synths affect this plan, or is it a case of just getting a feed from both synths into a headphone amp that can take 2 inputs and feeding it to the headfones?


sorry for all the questions

[tauzero]

[quote name='elephantstone' post='1012229' date='Nov 4 2010, 04:06 PM']does the synth player having two synths affect this plan, or is it a case of just getting a feed from both synths into a headphone amp that can take 2 inputs and feeding it to the headfones?[/quote]
Small cheap mixer with headphone output? You should be able to turn that up somewhat.

[cheddatom]

don't keyboards have tap tempos for their arpegiators etc? In which case the keyboard player can just play along to the drums and tap to keep in time. I do this with delay pedals

[elephantstone]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1012232' date='Nov 4 2010, 04:07 PM']Small cheap mixer with headphone output? You should be able to turn that up somewhat.[/quote]


good idea mate, i'll get that looked into.

could be the solution.

ES

[BigRedX]

Unless the headphone output of the synth is very weedy you shouldn't need a headphone amp as well. Also the headphones make a big difference so if you need more volume try some more sensitive headphones.

Has the drummer tried playing to a click/arpeggios yet? There are some drummers who just can't get it. I've played with a great drummer in the past who's timing when completely to pieces as soon as he had to play to a click and wasn't the one setting the tempo.

Also why are you the one sorting this out and not the synth player (the person who should understand the technology) and the drummer who's the person who should be able to work out what is the most comfortable thing to play to?

[elephantstone]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1012274' date='Nov 4 2010, 04:37 PM']Unless the headphone output of the synth is very weedy you shouldn't need a headphone amp as well. Also the headphones make a big difference so if you need more volume try some more sensitive headphones.

Has the drummer tried playing to a click/arpeggios yet? There are some drummers who just can't get it. I've played with a great drummer in the past who's timing when completely to pieces as soon as he had to play to a click and wasn't the one setting the tempo.

Also why are you the one sorting this out and not the synth player (the person who should understand the technology) and the drummer who's the person who should be able to work out what is the most comfortable thing to play to?[/quote]



that was the problem before, taking a feed directly form the synth, wasnt loud enough without altering the volume output of the actual synth.

the drummer has played to a click/arpeggios and stuff when recording and whn jamming just him and the synth player but as soon as it is in a live situation and the rest of the band kick in then its not loud enough to hear.

we are searching for a solution as a band, its not just left to me to sort, just thought i'd throw it out to the floor to see what the best suggestions are,

cheers for the help much appreciated

ES

[DanOwens]

[quote name='elephantstone' post='1012162' date='Nov 4 2010, 03:16 PM']excellent man, not quite sure i understand though, MIDI clock???

so for being a dumbass but could you talk me through it?[/quote]

MIDI clock is an electronic pulse sent through MIDI cables. Most MIDI devices (metronomes, synths etc) can respond to this by aligning any time-based parameter (delay, arp, click) to this clock. The tempo of the clock is defined by the user (ie: your synth player typing in the tempo at the start of each song).

MIDI devices allow users to chain them together. This means your synth player would be able to align all his gear with one clock source (one cable from the clock).

There are variables that can cause problems. They are usually:
[list=1]
[*]A drummer not being able to play to a click (this can be remedied with practice)
[*]More cables on stage (can be messy)
[*]More technology on stage (more tech means more opportunities for problems)
[/list]
You would have to decide whether your group want to tackle these problems. In my mind, it would make your group function better if you do.


There have been suggestions about using headphones and just feeding him the signal. I've found that this can be problematic as it relies upon the arpeggio sounds to have strong transients (the bit at the beginning of the sound). If the sounds are softer, or if the sounds start to blend together the drummer might struggle to pick out the start of each note, making timing become an issue again.


I'm happy to answer any questions as my group went through a similar experience to you. With trial, error and technical experimentation we've created a great sound.

Dan

[DanOwens]

I would also add that the drummer uses normal iPod headphones, the bleed from the band will be too much.

I'd suggest a pair of decent closed back, sensitive headphones.

Dan

[elephantstone]

Dan, your a legend cheers!!

if its alright with you il send you a few pm's to pick your brain??

[DanOwens]

[quote name='elephantstone' post='1012292' date='Nov 4 2010, 04:59 PM']Dan, your a legend cheers!!

if its alright with you il send you a few pm's to pick your brain??[/quote]

Why not do it here and let others contribute? That way, the members who wanted to know but didn't want to ask can learn and the thread will be there for searching later.

Fire away!

Dan

[elephantstone]

nice one man, just didnt want to keep rambling on!

i do have questions but i'll discuss it with the guys in the next hour and get back to you.

i'll be back on later with some more focused and structured questions.

Cheers mate.

ES

[DanOwens]

Nice one!