Live Situation Synth + Drums + Arpegiators

[Legion]

Keep rambling, its all good stuff

Dan, I'm glad you confirmed my thoughts that just sending the synth to the drummer is no good. We have also found that certain phasey sounds or slow attack sounds blur the lines so much that its hard to get a grip on where things start and stop. Previously we had the synth running a high hat to emphasise every 4th beat etc but it was only to give the drummer something to lock in with and not really the overall sound we wanted. I like the idea of the midi clock unit, then we can sync my novation and microkorg to the keyboard players "rig" and have all timed effects running in sync.

[DanOwens]

[quote name='Legion' post='1012322' date='Nov 4 2010, 05:22 PM']Keep rambling, its all good stuff

Dan, I'm glad you confirmed my thoughts that just sending the synth to the drummer is no good. We have also found that certain phasey sounds or slow attack sounds blur the lines so much that its hard to get a grip on where things start and stop. Previously we had the synth running a high hat to emphasise every 4th beat etc but it was only to give the drummer something to lock in with and not really the overall sound we wanted. I like the idea of the midi clock unit, then we can sync my novation and microkorg to the keyboard players "rig" and have all timed effects running in sync.[/quote]

Very similar to what we're doing, actually.

A remedy to your synth-as-click solution would be to hard-pan your arps to one channel and hi-hat-type-sound to the other (providing your synth can work in stereo like that). Feed the synth channel to the desk and the click to your drummer.

That's what Polysics used to do when we were touring with them (but with minidisc). Here they are for all our fun:

Edited November 4, 2010 by DanOwens

[elephantstone]

Dan,
I'm really intrigued by this midi clock idea.

our synth player uses these: Roland SH-201 [url="http://www.roland.co.uk/products/productdetails.aspx?p=769&c=83"]http://www.roland.co.uk/products/productde...?p=769&c=83[/url]
MicroKorg [url="http://www.korg.co.uk/products/pro_keyboard/microkorg/pk_microkorg.asp"]http://www.korg.co.uk/products/pro_keyboar...k_microkorg.asp[/url]

if we were to use this MIDI clock idea, can you suggest any gear that would be compatible and reliable??

could you run over the process again so i can copy it and show it to the guys? that way we have a clear idea of what we need and why it is better than just feeding the synth to headphones.

what would happen when the synth isnt playing and its for instance: a guitar breakdown, obviously the guitar is not going to keep perfect time with the drums and if the keys come back in they may be out of time with the guitar? Does this make any sense?

edit: great youtube vid!!

Edited November 4, 2010 by elephantstone

[xgsjx]

I haven't had time to read all the 1st page, so don't know if this was suggested.

Another idea to look at would be to have a cheap drum machine (or laptop) as a tempo controller that sends a click to the drummer's headphones & midi to the synths to keep all in sync & give control of the tempo controller to either the drummer or the keysman.

Just another option to ponder.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='elephantstone' post='1012511' date='Nov 4 2010, 08:09 PM']what would happen when the synth isnt playing and its for instance: a guitar breakdown, obviously the guitar is not going to keep perfect time with the drums and if the keys come back in they may be out of time with the guitar? Does this make any sense? :lol:[/quote]
This is exactly why you need to use a constant clock signal to play to. Otherwise there is no guarantee that the drummer isn't going to change tempo slightly during so that when the arpeggios come back in they'll be obviously out of sync with the current tempo of the song.

What I would suggest is a drum machine (with MIDI) acting as your master clock. The only person who hears this is your drummer. You can program it either with a simple click on each quarter note and an accent on the first beat of the bar or something more rhythmically interesting depending on what your drummer feels most comfortable playing along to.

The drum machine sends MIDI clock information to each of your synths - you may need to invest in a MIDI thru box to split the clock two ways, depending on what facilities each synth has for passing through MIDI data and how much delay this process adds. With your synths set to use the external clock for the arpeggio speed.

Everyone in the band plays to the drummer as usual. However because the drummer is playing to the drum machine which is also supplying the MIDI clock information for the synths when your keyboard player hits the arpeggios because the timing information is coming from the drum machine via MIDI they will be in time with the drummer automatically.

The only thing you have to watch then is how to keep in time when the drummer isn't playing - intros and breakdowns etc. The easiest way is for the drummer to provide stick clicks or similar at a level that can be heard by the musicians on stage, but isn't too obvious out in the audience.

Most drum machines with MIDI capability allow you to program the tempo as part of the song - some will even allow tempo changes at a pattern level, so all you need to do is pick the correct song/pattern and your ready to go with the correct tempo all set up.

Good luck!

[DanOwens]

[b]Ok. Here's how it breaks down:[/b]

When using MIDI clock, you have two key relationships: [u]Master[/u] and [u]Slave[/u].

[u]Master[/u] provides the MIDI clock information
[u]Slave[/u] receives and responds to MIDI clock information
[b]
Lets consider the synths first:[/b]

Neither the SH-201 or Microkorg can act as the [u]Master[/u], so they will be set as the [u]Slaves[/u]; that means you need a MIDI clock [u]Master[/u].

The Alesis SH-16 for sale [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=107953"]HERE[/url] would serve as a MIDI clock [u]Master[/u]. You would plug a midi cable into the MIDI OUT of the SH-16 and into the MIDI IN of the Microkorg. You would then plug a MIDI cable into the MIDI THRU of the Microkorg into the MIDI IN of the SH-201.

Using the MIDI THRU is very important as if you would use the MIDI OUT of the Microkorg, there would be a strong chance that when your player played the keys of the Microkorg it would be play the keys of the SH-201 at the same time.

[b]Lets consider the drummer:[/b]

The SH-16 is a drum machine and would be able to play a simple click track to the drummer as well as act as the MIDI clock [u]Master[/u].

In my band, the drummer uses a Yamaha Clickstation which acts as a [u]Slave[/u]. We use a laptop as the MIDI clock [u]Master[/u].


You'll see mine and BigRedX's posts have common themes. Reading both of these and (if you're serious) MIDI for the Professional [[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/MIDI-Professional-Paul-Lehrmann/dp/0825613744"]CLICK[/url]] will make you an expert!

Edited November 4, 2010 by DanOwens

[DanOwens]

(Can you tell I'm a music teacher! )

[elephantstone]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1012653' date='Nov 4 2010, 10:08 PM']This is exactly why you need to use a constant clock signal to play to. Otherwise there is no guarantee that the drummer isn't going to change tempo slightly during so that when the arpeggios come back in they'll be obviously out of sync with the current tempo of the song.

What I would suggest is a drum machine (with MIDI) acting as your master clock. The only person who hears this is your drummer. You can program it either with a simple click on each quarter note and an accent on the first beat of the bar or something more rhythmically interesting depending on what your drummer feels most comfortable playing along to.

The drum machine sends MIDI clock information to each of your synths - you may need to invest in a MIDI thru box to split the clock two ways, depending on what facilities each synth has for passing through MIDI data and how much delay this process adds. With your synths set to use the external clock for the arpeggio speed.

Everyone in the band plays to the drummer as usual. However because the drummer is playing to the drum machine which is also supplying the MIDI clock information for the synths when your keyboard player hits the arpeggios because the timing information is coming from the drum machine via MIDI they will be in time with the drummer automatically.

The only thing you have to watch then is how to keep in time when the drummer isn't playing - intros and breakdowns etc. The easiest way is for the drummer to provide stick clicks or similar at a level that can be heard by the musicians on stage, but isn't too obvious out in the audience.

Most drum machines with MIDI capability allow you to program the tempo as part of the song - some will even allow tempo changes at a pattern level, so all you need to do is pick the correct song/pattern and your ready to go with the correct tempo all set up.

Good luck![/quote]


[quote name='DanOwens' post='1012691' date='Nov 4 2010, 10:42 PM'](Can you tell I'm a music teacher! )[/quote]


Guys i cannot thank you enough!! this has been such a great help.

i will pass this info on and let you know the feedback, personally i think the MIDI is the way to go.

once again thanks,

ES

[DanOwens]

Come back to us with the system and equipment that you've chosen to use. I'd love to hear how you've run with it.

Also, that MIDI book is £2.51 used and really is the standard text for people entering this realm. If you run with this (and believe me you can run far!) you can open up all sorts of new possibilities!

Dan

[Bassman Sam]

I always find if a drummer drifts out of sync with a click track, a swift punch to the side of his head acts like a reset button.

[xgsjx]

Oops, I'v read the rest of the posts & see BRX & Dan have already said what I was suggesting but in more detail!
Getting gear to sync isn't hard, getting people to is the tricky bit.

[DanOwens]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1012896' date='Nov 5 2010, 07:45 AM']Oops, I'v read the rest of the posts & see BRX & Dan have already said what I was suggesting but in more detail!
Getting gear to sync isn't hard, getting people to is the tricky bit. [/quote]

But at the end of the day it's a linear problem with a binary outcome.

(AKA Practice makes perfect)


Dan

[elephantstone]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1012748' date='Nov 4 2010, 11:36 PM']Come back to us with the system and equipment that you've chosen to use. I'd love to hear how you've run with it.

Also, that MIDI book is £2.51 used and really is the standard text for people entering this realm. If you run with this (and believe me you can run far!) you can open up all sorts of new possibilities!

Dan[/quote]


Will do, we are heading into town tomorrow, so i will copy and email your breakdown to the rest of the guys, this really seems to me the best way forward.

I'll post equipment and stuff prior to buying it just to make sure that it will all be compatible.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed! it has made a confusing situation clear.

ES

[elephantstone]

[quote name='Bassman Sam' post='1012858' date='Nov 5 2010, 03:07 AM']I always find if a drummer drifts out of sync with a click track, a swift punch to the side of his head acts like a reset button. [/quote]


hahahaha, might need to try that!

[tauzero]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1012685' date='Nov 4 2010, 10:37 PM']You'll see mine and BigRedX's posts have common themes. Reading both of these and (if you're serious) MIDI for the Professional [[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/MIDI-Professional-Paul-Lehrmann/dp/0825613744"]CLICK[/url]] will make you an expert![/quote]
Dammit, that's just cost me a fiver...

[DanOwens]

Google / Amazon is your bestest most clingiest friend!

Dan

[elephantstone]

hey guys, thought i'd post a wee update on the situation.

the guys loved the idea once i explained it to them

wee went into town yesterday and got the situation sorted. we went into GG-digital in Glasgow and bought the alesis drum machine Dan suggested. ad the MIDI cables to go with it.

so happy days, cheers for all the contributions.

we havent tried it in the studio yet but hopefully we get it right


ES

[elephantstone]

well, we tried this in the studio last night, and after a fair amount of messing about with the synth and downloading the manual, we finally got the thing to work.

it was absolutely perfect, made us sound so much tighter already.

it is just a matter of rehearsing it to be ready for the single launch.

cheers again guys

[cheddatom]

It's amazing how much a click tightens up the band isn't it!

[elephantstone]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1017228' date='Nov 9 2010, 09:48 AM']It's amazing how much a click tightens up the band isn't it![/quote]

absolutely!