Chris Squire - Would he have been better as a reader?

[xilddx]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1013576' date='Nov 5 2010, 06:18 PM']This thread is pointless,File it with all the others! I have actually started changing if I can or cant read in different threads just for shits and giggles! The top and bottom is people have different tastes in music. Beethoven does nothing for me I would rather hear Sid viscous thrashing it out and we all know readers who are to us "better" than non readers and visa versa anyone who has decided all readers are better than none at all levels is an arse![/quote]
You think my question is entirely invalid then, do you?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1013716' date='Nov 5 2010, 08:21 PM']Yes, they would.[/quote]
Interesting

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='silddx' post='1013778' date='Nov 5 2010, 09:35 PM']You think my question is entirely invalid then, do you? [/quote]

The original post was fine and worth asking but it was obvious where this was going to end up. The readers think they are "better" (whatever that means in an art context, if you count music as an art?,I do) than the none readers and the truth is some are and some are not end of.

Anyway I have got to go some [i]non serious [/i]idiot just turned up to a gig and him and the trumpet player are having a right ding dong about some dots on a bit of paper! Yet another gig goes to a sight reader haha

[Marvin]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1013716' date='Nov 5 2010, 08:21 PM']Yes, they would.[/quote]
Any one in particular, just so we can have an example

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='lowdown' post='1013136' date='Nov 5 2010, 04:53 AM']That might explain why George Martin did a lot of the arrangements and string writing on some of the lavish productions.
I think he was known as the fifth Beatle.[/quote]
As were Billy Preston and Bernard Purdie, at least in some circles.

So watching the linked video with Chris he plays something and then says that's an inversion. Right there he's in the top few % of all performing musicians for theory knowledge. He also says he couldn't just rip off a diminished scale but he knows the sound of one. How many rock greats even know there is a diminished scale or two? I think his humility is being mistaken for ignorance here, he clearly has a decent grasp of theory that is well above average.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1013948' date='Nov 6 2010, 03:29 AM']So watching the linked video with Chris he plays something and then says that's an inversion. Right there he's in the top few % of all performing musicians for theory knowledge. He also says he couldn't just rip off a diminished scale but he knows the sound of one. How many rock greats even know there is a diminished scale or two? I think his humility is being mistaken for ignorance here, he clearly has a decent grasp of theory that is well above average.[/quote]
Thank you for recognising that. It's exactly why I posted the video.

[xilddx]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='1014006' date='Nov 6 2010, 09:23 AM']Thank you for recognising that. It's exactly why I posted the video.[/quote]
Yes but come on guys! This is pretty basic stuff. I know what things sound like and can sometimes put names to them, it's not rocket salad is it, for someone who's played that long. Can you tell the sound of a minor scale from a major? Most musicians can.

BUT, if Wakeman said "Chris! Would an A[i]b[/i] Diminished scale work over a D Minor chord sequence modulating into E Major?" would he be able to answer? That's the sort of thing I mean by THEORY. Not, knowing the sound of a whole tone scale, most of us could probably sing that couldn't we?

[risingson]

[quote name='silddx' post='1014186' date='Nov 6 2010, 12:45 PM']Yes but come on guys! This is pretty basic stuff. I know what things sound like and can sometimes put names to them, it's not rocket salad is it, for someone who's played that long. Can you tell the sound of a minor scale from a major? Most musicians can.

BUT, if Wakeman said "Chris! Would an A[i]b[/i] Diminished scale work over a D Minor chord sequence modulating into E Major?" would he be able to answer? That's the sort of thing I mean by THEORY. Not, knowing the sound of a whole tone scale, most of us could probably sing that couldn't we?[/quote]

I think if you have to think that hard about music whether you're theoretically competent or not then you're going about music the wrong way. Nothing should have to be hard when you play your given instrument, the short and tall of it is that knowing your theory means that you're less likely to hit a wall in your playing where you're struggling to understand what to do next. This doesn't necessarily mean that you require 4 years of formal training and a doctorate in music, it really is just common sense. For example, knowing how harmony works and what makes up chords, knowing rhythm and knowing how to transcribe stuff by ear is going to further you as a musician whether you choose to use these skills or not (quite frankly it is inevitable that you will as a bass player).

I don't know much about Chris Squire other than the fact he was (is?) Yes's bass player but he seems like a good musician. Would he be a better player if he knew his theory? Maybe. Would be be a more competent musician? Undoubtedly. All I know is that people some musicians writhe when they hear theory being discussed because they naturally assume it's all about sitting down in front of a page of dots... that's not what theory is about, it's about knowing what your doing in any given situation. If you choose to use theory minus any sort of dispassionate approach to music e.g. start reharmonising things that don't need reharmonising and messing with the head of the keyboard player and guitarist, then that's indicative of poor musicianship. Simple. Bottom line is it never hurts to know what you're doing.

[xilddx]

[quote name='risingson' post='1014214' date='Nov 6 2010, 01:14 PM']I think if you have to think that hard about music whether you're theoretically competent or not then you're going about music the wrong way. Nothing should have to be hard when you play your given instrument, the short and tall of it is that knowing your theory means that you're less likely to hit a wall in your playing where you're struggling to understand what to do next. This doesn't necessarily mean that you require 4 years of formal training and a doctorate in music, it really is just common sense. For example, knowing how harmony works and what makes up chords, knowing rhythm and knowing how to transcribe stuff by ear is going to further you as a musician whether you choose to use these skills or not (quite frankly it is inevitable that you will as a bass player).

I don't know much about Chris Squire other than the fact he was (is?) Yes's bass player but he seems like a good musician. Would he be a better player if he knew his theory? Maybe. Would be be a more competent musician? Undoubtedly. All I know is that people some musicians writhe when they hear theory being discussed because they naturally assume it's all about sitting down in front of a page of dots... that's not what theory is about, it's about knowing what your doing in any given situation. If you choose to use theory minus any sort of dispassionate approach to music e.g. start reharmonising things that don't need reharmonising and messing with the head of the keyboard player and guitarist, then that's indicative of poor musicianship. Simple. Bottom line is it never hurts to know what you're doing.[/quote]
I think you're right for the most part.

The fact is, if you have a crap ear, or can't THINK music, no amount of theory or reading is going to elevate you from being a machine operator. Just like knowing all that theory won't make you into a great songwriter.

It's really all about whether you have an aptitude for making music, a kind of instinct and desire. The rest is all augmentation and helping make you the most EFFICIENT and PROFESSIONAL musician you can be.

Therefore, knowing theory and being able to read notation can NEVER be a negative.

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='1014186' date='Nov 6 2010, 12:45 PM']Most of us could probably sing that couldn't we?[/quote]

Hell no! I'm a bassist which means I can't sing (unless it's at a poor backing vox standard!)

[Truckstop]

I'd agree that a sound knowledge of theory could possibly impinge on your ability to groove and think abstractly.
Also, I'm curious as to whether the Beatles got so big due to the image they created, or to the music? I always wonder that.

Truckstop

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='1014255' date='Nov 6 2010, 01:38 PM']Hell no! I'm a bassist which means I can't sing (unless it's at a poor backing vox standard!) [/quote]
I meant in your head, you can HEAR the sound of a whole tone, or whatever, scale in your head.

[skej21]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1014269' date='Nov 6 2010, 01:49 PM']I'd agree that a sound knowledge of theory could possibly impinge on your ability to groove and think abstractly.[/quote]

I think I would have to disagree.

My bass tutor/s have always told me that you should understand as much as possible and then choose to leave stuff out.

Bassists without theory knowledge and technical ability are limited in what they can play, but a lot of players who get so theoretically/technically competant find it difficult/"below them" to play "easy" lines which results in overplaying. This is just an issue due to lack of discipline IMO and I think it's better to have a wide knowledge base and be selective in what you play across a large variety of music, than be a player with no knowledge and no choices.


That IMO is the best way to work.

[stingrayPete1977]

I think the point that has been missed on this thread is that we can all learn more. Theory, Practice, Reading, Tab or just jamming it out will make us all better players IMO.

Would Michael Schumacher of been a better driver if he had took a few years worth of driver training alongside his career? Of course he would but he was still 7? times world champion anyway. These threads just give a little comfort to the readers that if they had to have a bass off against a celebrity bassist or read a minor wording mistake in bassist magazine by them they can sleep better at night.

This idea that you can pass a certain grade which makes everyone on that level a cut above people below or who cant read at all is nonesense. Most the bands I have been in would have a pissy fit if I started on about all the diminished this that and the other and tell me to play it straight and solid like they said in the first place. Thats why they think us bassists are boring!

Are we near the end of the 4 page who is better readers or none readers thread quota yet?

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='1014286' date='Nov 6 2010, 02:07 PM']I think I would have to disagree.

My bass tutor/s have always told me that you should understand as much as possible and then choose to leave stuff out.

Bassists without theory knowledge and technical ability are limited in what they can play, but a lot of players who get so theoretically/technically competant find it difficult/"below them" to play "easy" lines which results in overplaying. This is just an issue due to lack of discipline IMO and I think it's better to have a wide knowledge base and be selective in what you play across a large variety of music, than be a player with no knowledge and no choices.


That IMO is the best way to work.[/quote]

I agree. A cabbage with theory is still a cabbage.

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='1014291' date='Nov 6 2010, 02:12 PM']I agree. A cabbage with theory is still a cabbage.[/quote]

Never a truer word spoken.

Some of the nicest/best players I've played with couldn't even spell "theory" and some of the "best" (on paper) have been total cabbages!

Let's forget about learning to read or not, how about learning something about professionalism!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='silddx' post='1014186' date='Nov 6 2010, 12:45 PM']Yes but come on guys! This is pretty basic stuff. I know what things sound like and can sometimes put names to them, it's not rocket salad is it, for someone who's played that long. Can you tell the sound of a minor scale from a major? Most musicians can.

BUT, if Wakeman said "Chris! Would an A[i]b[/i] Diminished scale work over a D Minor chord sequence modulating into E Major?" would he be able to answer? That's the sort of thing I mean by THEORY. Not, knowing the sound of a whole tone scale, most of us could probably sing that couldn't we?[/quote]
Nige, it may be pretty basic but it's still theory.

I have to say these threads are amongst the most depressing on BC - and that's saying something.

[skankdelvar]

Read, schmead. Far better to devote valuable practice time to learning little dance steps, playing l/h hammer-ons so you can wave to the audience, that sort of thing.

As for 'quality' gear, pah! Spend the cash on getting your teeth fixed. A cheeky boyish smile goes a lot further than leaden 'professionalism' in this business.

Edited November 6, 2010 by skankdelvar

[xilddx]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='1014303' date='Nov 6 2010, 02:34 PM']Nige, it may be pretty basic but it's still theory.

I have to say these threads are amongst the most depressing on BC - and that's saying something.[/quote]
Well I don't want you to be depressed. The great ambiguities of music, and art in general, are what keep it alive and kicking. Discussing them may enlighten and help form opinion. Even if there are no concrete answers.

If you still get depressed, then I'd advise you avoid those things that make you feel depressed.

[risingson]

[quote name='silddx' post='1014248' date='Nov 6 2010, 01:33 PM']I think you're right for the most part.

The fact is, if you have a crap ear, or can't THINK music, no amount of theory or reading is going to elevate you from being a machine operator. Just like knowing all that theory won't make you into a great songwriter.

It's really all about whether you have an aptitude for making music, a kind of instinct and desire. The rest is all augmentation and helping make you the most EFFICIENT and PROFESSIONAL musician you can be.

Therefore, knowing theory and being able to read notation can NEVER be a negative.[/quote]

It's like maths. I'm sh*t at it, but should I read up on it, practice it daily and perfect the way I read and write it, would I be good at it? I'd know about it and be able to bore you to death talking about it and I'd probably have a good understanding of it, but I'll never be a mathematician.

There is a school of thought that contests that we are all born with the same aural abilities; our development in infancy and how we choose to use our ears during the early stages of our lives dictates whether or not we can harbour the ability to be good musicians should we choose to be. I believe this to be true, there are people I know who will never be good at music no matter how much they enjoy it. I think that theory is only the result of the human ability to create music in the first place, of course that's true, but in the same way we consider in this day and age literacy to be of the utmost importance to the development of an educated individual, so it stands to reason that maybe the same applies to musicians. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all; in fact I would wager that most of my favourite bands do not have good theoretical knowledge. What I will say is that it can't hurt to know more.

[JTUK]

I have to say....am pissing myself laughing here.

same old, same old..

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='silddx' post='1014186' date='Nov 6 2010, 05:45 AM']Yes but come on guys! This is pretty basic stuff. I know what things sound like and can sometimes put names to them, it's not rocket salad is it, for someone who's played that long. Can you tell the sound of a minor scale from a major? Most musicians can.

BUT, if Wakeman said "Chris! Would an A[i]b[/i] Diminished scale work over a D Minor chord sequence modulating into E Major?" would he be able to answer? That's the sort of thing I mean by THEORY. Not, knowing the sound of a whole tone scale, most of us could probably sing that couldn't we?[/quote]
Judging by this answer I would say he knows more theory than you. That may be wrong but you can see how wrong it is to say someone doesn't know theory because they don't take every opportunity to flaunt it like Wooten flaunts his flamenco slaps. He clearly showed facility with the topic at hand and might have been toning down his answers for the mouth breather that asked him what kind of pick he uses.

I think you need to reassess your assumptions on Chris. Or at least phrase things as a question and not facts.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1014269' date='Nov 6 2010, 06:49 AM']I'd agree that a sound knowledge of theory could possibly impinge on your ability to groove and think abstractly.
Also, I'm curious as to whether the Beatles got so big due to the image they created, or to the music? I always wonder that.[/quote]
My opinion is that the Beatles music is praised in the most part because of the success of the image. The Beatles early rise to fame parallels the rise of Justin Beiber. Pop stars singing to little girls that made it really big and then phased into more complex stuff. Humans have a tendency to deify those that create what we like, so Rush fans tend toward the Geddy is the bestest ever kind of stuff etc... I don't think the Beatles are bad and I love some of the tunes but I think the genius labels lauded on them wouldn't exist without the haircuts and screaming teenagers.

Since I do have a degree in music I'm of the school of thought that says knowledge is always an improvement. I can't think of a single example of a musician who's musical ability decreased with knowledge. There's lots who swear by the ignorance method, almost always in rock & pop, but when I listen to their music I just hear the ignorance.

I never heard McCartney was anti theory before, that surprised me.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1014290' date='Nov 6 2010, 07:11 AM']Are we near the end of the 4 page who is better readers or none readers thread quota yet? [/quote]
Readers can play without looking at their fingers. A useful skill even for punk rockers with 1 string basses.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='risingson' post='1014410' date='Nov 6 2010, 09:00 AM']It's like maths. I'm sh*t at it, but should I read up on it, practice it daily and perfect the way I read and write it, would I be good at it? I'd know about it and be able to bore you to death talking about it and I'd probably have a good understanding of it, but I'll never be a mathematician.[/quote]
But you would be much better at math. You may not be the best but you can be much better. With enough study you could get to the point where the average person could not distinguish you from true genius. It would take someone with your new level of skill to make the distinction.