Theory versus Groove

[Pete Academy]

Following on from Silddx's thread, what do you think is more important? I think it's great to have theory knowledge, but I also think being able to play in time with a great groove is the most important aspect of bass playing, especially in a live situation.

Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing...

[risingson]

If you don't have feel for music there is no point having theoretical knowledge as you'll never be an interesting musician to listen to.

[geoffbyrne]

As someone once told me, "You can be a great car driver, but you'll get even more out of it if you know WHY everything works the way it dose."

G.

[JMT3781]

Today i spent the day preparing an exercise for a student.. he wants to learn the Modes...

i set up a drum loop and electirc piano parts, then did a track for each mode. In each track i started by recording the scale, then recording a groove using notes from the mode, then recording a solo using that mode.

I must say, when i had to concentrate on grooving modally, my "feel" and general grooviness absolutely sucked. Maybe because its just because i don't do it often, but for me, grooving is all about being natural

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='JMT3781' post='1015598' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:39 PM']Today i spent the day preparing an exercise for a student.. he wants to learn the Modes...

i set up a drum loop and electirc piano parts, then did a track for each mode. In each track i started by recording the scale, then recording a groove using notes from the mode, then recording a solo using that mode.

I must say, when i had to concentrate on grooving modally, my "feel" and general grooviness absolutely sucked. Maybe because its just because i don't do it often, but for me, grooving is all about being natural[/quote]

Exactly.

[umph]

you should combine the two, saying that i only know my scales really. Some of the players around here are sh*t hot and they're sh*t hot on the theory to

[Pete Academy]

Lock in with the drummer, and make sure the groove is there. The audience will love you.

[risingson]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1015604' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:46 PM']Lock in with the drummer, and make sure the groove is there. The audience will love you.[/quote]

Actually, most of the time the audience won't even notice you're doing anything different

[skej21]

Why is it theory VERSUS groove.

Surely I'm not the only bassist on here that can do both, and at the same time?

In fact, it's impossible to groove without theory and it's impossible to understand theory without being able to put it into practice.

You have to at least understand SOME of the theory (even subconciously) behind how a bass works/how your fingers produce the sound in order to groove, so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

This thread might as well be called "Trolling versus Sh**stirring, which one is best?"

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='skej21' post='1015606' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:47 PM']Why is it theory VERSUS groove.

Surely I'm not the only bassist on here that can do both, and at the same time?

In fact, it's impossible to groove without theory and it's impossible to understand theory without being able to put it into practice.

You have to at least understand SOME of the theory (even subconciously) behind how a bass works/how your fingers produce the sound in order to groove, so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

This thread might as well be called "Trolling versus Sh**stirring, which one is best?"[/quote]

Sorry, but I disagree. How can it be impossible to groove without theory? Play one note, in time, with a groove, and you have the audience hooked.

[umph]

[quote name='skej21' post='1015606' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:47 PM']Why is it theory VERSUS groove.

Surely I'm not the only bassist on here that can do both, and at the same time?

In fact, it's impossible to groove without theory and it's impossible to understand theory without being able to put it into practice.

You have to at least understand SOME of the theory (even subconciously) behind how a bass works/how your fingers produce the sound in order to groove, so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

This thread might as well be called "Trolling versus Sh**stirring, which one is best?"[/quote]
+1

[mcgraham]

This old chestnut?

I would say the two are not mutually exclusive - I'd even say that theory includes education about groove (though perhaps not the less tangible 'feeling' of groove). Theory helps me with creating grooves, understanding groove, and improves my feeling for grooves in songs. Likewise, just coming at things from a 'groove first' point of view helps me to find useful application of acquired theory, teaches me to keep things simple and serve the song first and foremost.

Groove is so important for bass, but you can't divorce it from theory (IMO).

[risingson]

[quote name='skej21' post='1015606' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:47 PM']Why is it theory VERSUS groove.

Surely I'm not the only bassist on here that can do both, and at the same time?

In fact, it's impossible to groove without theory and it's impossible to understand theory without being able to put it into practice.[/quote]

Exactly. Some people seem to think it's an endless battle between the two. It's not.

[Pete Academy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how can theory help you with groove, timing and discipline?

[mcgraham]

[quote]Lock in with the drummer, and make sure the groove is there. The audience will love you.[/quote]
[quote]Sorry, but I disagree. How can it be impossible to groove without theory? Play one note, in time, with a groove, and you have the audience hooked.[/quote]

Theory encompasses harmony, melody, and [b][i]rhythm[/i][/b] as well. Whether or not you were explicitly taught by a teacher what to do to lock in with a rhythm or groove, you are still using fundamental principles from established music theory. As such, any music is based on some theory, whether or not the musician playing it knows or acknowledges it.

[skej21]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1015610' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:50 PM']Sorry, but I disagree. How can it be impossible to groove without theory? Play one note, in time, with a groove, and you have the audience hooked.[/quote]

Okay.

You must know SOME theory to pick up a bass. Whether that is the motorskills to be able to use the bass, or knowing that the note you're basing your groove on is "in key" or the rhythmic patterns that you choose to use within the groove.

Playing a rhythmic pattern that "grooves" against a drummer means that you have an understanding of theory (even if that's just through years of learning by ear and listening to grooves by other bass players and copying them)

You might not understand the theory, but you can copy and apply it, which means theory and groove are linked so closely that they cannot be considered as two elements in order for you to pit them against each other.

It's both, or nothing...

[Mog]

I dont see how the two aren't linked. Surely both go hand in hand?

[Pete Academy]

I have witnessed musicians that are geniuses of theory that can't play in time or improvise.

[skej21]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1015628' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:58 PM']I have witnessed musicians that are geniuses of theory that can't play in time or improvise.[/quote]

That, however, is based on your opinion and the subjectivity of your opinion based on YOUR personal theoretical knowledge.

For all you know, they may be playing a groove that to you sounds bad, but is actually a very very complex polyrhythmic groove based on advanced theory or complex rhythmic patterns.

The fact is, theory and groove are linked together.

Whether your opinion reflects this, is irrelevant.

Edited November 7, 2010 by skej21

[mcgraham]

[quote]I have witnessed musicians that are geniuses of theory that can't play in time or improvise.[/quote]

So have I However, that shows they are not geniuses of music theory, as they lack rhythm skills, and the skills to apply whatever intellectual knowledge they may have acquired. It's like uni students who have all the books and can recite things from books and equations verbatim, but as soon as someone asks them to use that info to solve a problem. they get stuck on the first line. It's not the theory that is at fault, it's the player's lack of ability to use it. Theory is just a tool at the end of the day.

Those who say they know loads about theory but can't play should not discourage people from learning theory.

[chris_b]

James Jamerson did both, but you don't need theory to groove.

[mcgraham]

[quote]I have witnessed musicians that are geniuses of theory that can't play in time or improvise.[/quote]

So have I However, that shows they are not geniuses of music theory, as they lack rhythm skills, and the skills to apply whatever intellectual knowledge they may have acquired. It's like uni students who have all the books and can recite things from books and equations verbatim, but as soon as someone asks them to use that info to solve a problem. they get stuck on the first line. It's not the theory that is at fault, it's the player's lack of ability to use it. Theory is just a tool at the end of the day.

Those who say they know loads about theory but can't play should not discourage people from learning theory.

[skej21]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='1015637' date='Nov 7 2010, 08:04 PM']So have I However, that shows they are not geniuses of music theory, as they lack rhythm skills, and the skills to apply whatever intellectual knowledge they may have acquired. It's like uni students who have all the books and can recite things from books and equations verbatim, but as soon as someone asks them to use that info to solve a problem. they get stuck on the first line. It's not the theory that is at fault, it's the player's lack of ability to use it. Theory is just a tool at the end of the day.

Those who say they know loads about theory but can't play should not discourage people from learning theory.[/quote]

MASSIVE +1

[Doddy]

They both work together-it's not an either/or thing. You can be grooving like mad and playing all the wrong notes,and it will sound bad. Likewise you can be playing all the right notes with no groove and it will suck.
Groove,theory,feel,reading etc. shouldn't be thought of as mutually exclusive.Each one helps the other. They are all important parts of music.

[ironside1966]

My 2p worth
Sometimes I think people want reassurance that it’s ok not to read or know ant theory but the only people who seem to think it’s a bad idea not to have any theory are the ones without it.
Most people know theory they know what notes fit over a chord they know the names
We all have a different skill set if yours is fit for purpose then that is ok.
IIMHO the reason why people knock reading bands is if the parts are a bit tricky then you can lose some feel just like most people do when leaning a new song, you concentrate on getting the notes and timing first.