Theory versus Groove

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1016679' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:31 PM']To a point. You can get a hell of a lot of information on to the page,and a group of good players will be able to make it come alive.
Last week I did a couple of theatre gigs with an act from Las Vegas. The band (all nine of us) sight read the charts and totally nailed it in terms
of groove and feel,as well as being tight as hell. So much so,that we've now been offered a good theatre tour next year. Everything that we needed
was on the charts.[/quote]
That is wonderful, for YOU. A theatre tour sounds like hell for me, it is absolutely NOT what I got into music for. I like rocking out on a stage and pumping out original music, that's what [b]I[/b] like to do.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1016708' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:46 PM']Er - fairly sure. Let me have a think about it.

Yes, absolutely abhorrent. Except in certain circumstances.[/quote]
Absolutely!

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1016711' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:47 PM']That is wonderful, for YOU. A theatre tour sounds like hell for me, it is absolutely NOT what I got into music for. I like rocking out on a stage and pumping out original music, that's what [b]I[/b] like to do.[/quote]

The point was that you can get all you need off a chart if you know what you are doing. That specific gig was just used as an
example as it was recent.
Edit..... Despite it being a reading gig,we were rocking out on stage.

I like rocking out with original music too,and have no problems doing it either.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Doddy

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='1016711' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:47 PM']That is wonderful, for YOU. A theatre tour sounds like hell for me, it is absolutely NOT what I got into music for. I like rocking out on a stage and pumping out original music, that's what [b]I[/b] like to do.[/quote]

It's a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

I'd be very happy listening to a tribute act who were really accurate in their exact musical copies of classic songs. Or a covers band who played songs from charts/notation/memory and did a good job of playing a song I knew to a good standard. Or a band who created good music. Good MUSIC, regardless of it's origin!

However, I'd rather cheesegrate my ears off than listen to a sloppy, egotistical rock band that play "original music"...
Just because you can find a different permutation of the three power chords you know, doesn't make it original or interesting.

Edited November 8, 2010 by skej21

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1016695' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:38 PM']Go on then...... I'll put my arse on the line and clearly state that the 'best' approach is to be comfortable in both theory/reading
and groove/feel.[/quote]

I think that is what Marcus Miller nailed, there was a quote about it by him, something about plenty of people can play the music right off the page, but I can play it like I'm not playing it off the page.

[xgsjx]

I've not read all this post (there's a surprise G, just jump in with your daft ideas), but Groove vs Theory? Really???

I would have thought every bassist would want both? I know I do.

Wanting groove but not theory is a bit like being able to speak English, but not being interested in learning how to read or write it or even what the words mean.
Vice versa, wanting to learn theory but not groove is like being able to write words but not managing to make a decent sentence (I think I actually fall under this category when it comes to speaking . ).

What's next, strings vs leads?

[phil.i.stein]

can someone point me in the direction of the library, never mind the page or the book..

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016566' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:53 PM']Its overrated

I do think people are advocating for ignorance, albeit unconsciously. We al do it all the time - its how we get out of doing the laundry.

In order to feel good about the ways in which we behave, we need to convince ourselves that our choices are valid. If we choose not to read, we need to feel that that choice is legitimate and not simply a case of us not havign invested in what is necessary to be a fully developed musician. So we fill our heads with little lies and haf-truths that make this an ok choice: so & so can't read and he is great ergo I can't read and I too can be great. Additionally, if I can convince everyone else that this is so, I will be affirmed in my belief and can ignore that nagging doubt that I have in the back of my mind that I am missing out on something. Something wonderful.

We you can't and you are.[/quote]

I didn't 'choose' not to read. It just never crossed my mind, as I was too busy gigging and enjoying myself from when I started.

I just loved the audience reaction when the band was tight.

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016744' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:03 PM']I didn't 'choose' not to read. It just never crossed my mind, as I was too busy gigging and enjoying myself from when I started.

I just loved the audience reaction when the band was tight.[/quote]

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1016740' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:01 PM']I've not read all this post (there's a surprise G, just jump in with your daft ideas), but Groove vs Theory? Really???

I would have thought every bassist would want both? I know I do.

Wanting groove but not theory is a bit like being able to speak English, but not being interested in learning how to read or write it or even what the words mean.
Vice versa, wanting to learn theory but not groove is like being able to write words but not managing to make a decent sentence (I think I actually fall under this category when it comes to speaking . ).

What's next, strings vs leads? [/quote]

I've already admitted the 'versus' was probably innappropriate.

[peteb]

[quote name='skej21' post='1016729' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:57 PM']Just because you can find a different permutation of the three power chords you know, doesn't make it original or interesting.[/quote]
Come on - that's rubbish mate! If you can find something genuinely new or fresh with those three chords, then that CAN make it very interesting indeed

That is where the real talent is my friend....

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1016730' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:57 PM']I think that is what Marcus Miller nailed, there was a quote about it by him, something about plenty of people can play the music right off the page, but I can play it like I'm not playing it off the page.[/quote]

If ever there's an argument for both sides being as important, Marcus is the ideal candidate.

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1015587' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:34 PM']Following on from Silddx's thread, what do you think is more important? I think it's great to have theory knowledge, but I also think being able to play in time with a great groove is the most important aspect of bass playing, especially in a live situation.

Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing...[/quote]

Crap, grooving in time don't mean a thing if you're playing the wrong notes. Especially in a live situation where you can't 'drop in' or cut and paste.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016747' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:05 PM']I've already admitted the 'versus' was probably innappropriate.[/quote]
Sorry Pete, I never read that bit (or 4 other pages ).
I still don't understand why anyone wouldn't be interested in theory tho? Knowledge is a good thing (when it comes to music, that is).

Edited November 8, 2010 by xgsjx

[skej21]

[quote name='peteb' post='1016748' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:05 PM']Come on - that's rubbish mate! If you can find something genuinely new or fresh with those three chords, then that CAN make it very interesting indeed

That is where the real talent is my friend....[/quote]

I apologise... it would appear my sarcasm was lost in that post.

Just trying to be an obvious wind-up merchant to add to the ridiculous nature of this pointless thread.

In fact, I don't think bass players should learn to read bass clef or learn to groove. We should all just become singers and solve the world's need for more of these fines individuals

Edited November 8, 2010 by skej21

[Mr. Foxen]

Reminds me that recently, a chap in the pub declared that he had been playing guitar for 20 years to try and impress me regarding a guitar that was behind the bar (mine, donated to the pub as a decoration due to being a terrible instrument). I thought, if the best boast you have after playing guitar for 20 years is that you've been playing guitar for 20 years, you've probably been doing it wrong.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Soliloquy' post='1016755' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:09 PM']Crap, grooving in time don't mean a thing if you're playing the wrong notes. Especially in a live situation where you can't 'drop in' or cut and paste.[/quote]

Why would someone be playing the wrong notes? He wouldn't get past the audition stage.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1016756' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:09 PM']Sorry Pete, I never read that bit (or 4 other pages ).
I still don't understand why anyone wouldn't be interested in theory tho? Knowledge is a good thing (when it comes to music, that is).[/quote]

It's OK, mate. I think most people respond to my threads because of the avatar.

[Soliloquy]

I like what Victor Wooten says in his book about the 'elements of music'.

ALL are equal, and you need ALL of them to make the music work !

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016767' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:14 PM']Why would someone be playing the wrong notes? He wouldn't get past the audition stage. [/quote]

The band decided to transcribe to another key to suit a guesting horn player. The bassist doesn't know what transcribe means, but can groove like a mofo. Not an impossible scenario.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1016774' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:16 PM']The band decided to transcribe to another key to suit a guesting horn player. The bassist doesn't know what transcribe means, but can groove like a mofo. Not an impossible scenario.[/quote]

Good point.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1015587' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:34 PM']Following on from Silddx's thread, what do you think is more important? I think it's great to have theory knowledge, but I also think being able to play in time with a great groove is the most important aspect of bass playing, especially in a live situation.

Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing...[/quote]
It may not mean a thing if it ain't got that swing ... but the swing on it's own is not enough.

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016767' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:14 PM']Why would someone be playing the wrong notes? He wouldn't get past the audition stage. [/quote]

What audition ?

Where's there a mention of an audition in your opening statement ?

You're suggesting that playing in time, with 'groove' is more important than the actual notes that are being played. I'm saying that that's crap.

Both are to be treated with equal importance. You need the correct notes, played with 'feel' and in time for the music to work. To play the correct notes you need a knowledge of theory, no matter how basic that knowledge.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='1016729' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:57 PM']It's a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

I'd be very happy listening to a tribute act who were really accurate in their exact musical copies of classic songs. Or a covers band who played songs from charts/notation/memory and did a good job of playing a song I knew to a good standard. Or a band who created good music. Good MUSIC, regardless of it's origin!

[b]However, I'd rather cheesegrate my ears off than listen to a sloppy, egotistical rock band that play "original music"...
Just because you can find a different permutation of the three power chords you know, doesn't make it original or interesting.[/b][/quote]
I will try not to descend into profanity, but that statement, if you meant it, is one of the most condescending and arrogant statements I think I've come across on here recently. And it says an enormous amount about your personality and your approach to music.

Really disappointing

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='1016782' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:24 PM']I will try not to descend into profanity, but that statement, if you meant it, is one of the most condescending and arrogant statements I think I've come across on here recently. And it says an enormous amount about your personality and your approach to music.

Really disappointing [/quote]

Haha. I was just joking. I actually play in a classic rock "originals band" and it's one of the best gigs I have.

I'm just trying to highlight how stupid and outrageous most of the posts on here are.

If it makes you feel any better, I'd also rather have my ears cheesegrated off than listen to the modal jazz groups (including mine) who would happily play to their guitar neck all night long and play all of the notes in the "wrong" key, just to make themselves look clevererererer.

At the end of the day, why don't we all just do what we think is good for us as individuals and stop trying to goad people into arguments about nothing?