Theory versus Groove

[algmusic]

[quote name='Mog' post='1017806' date='Nov 9 2010, 04:36 PM']Maybe I took you up wrong or something, anyways. I've always sourced my own scores lad, I'm a bit anal that way! I get what you're saying about playing between the notes but it should be done at the right time. In some cases it shouldn't be done at all depending on genre. Then theres the question, "When does a groove become fret w***ing?" Subjective I know but maybe a valid question?
I also agree with you re the definition of "Groove" IMO it should be something simple and tasteful, a riff or run that very slightly changes the mood of that particular section of the song. Thats where versatility can play a major role IMO. Having a knowledge of other styles and applying them to what you're playing etc.

In general guys I really hope this isn't going to turn into a Them Vs Us kinda thing. The forum is well above that IME. What passes for good or bad/right or wrong is subjective. It really shouldn't be descending towards a cock measuring contest.[/quote]

Totally agree on all points mate

I know what you mean... I hate fret w*nking too.. it really gets my back up..

I like BC

[algmusic]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017723' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:57 PM']Run that by me again

EDIT: I have a fence for sale if you want it.[/quote]


I've been on this thread too long and now instead of talking some BS, i'm talking complete BS..

I'll take the Fence :-P

[Bilbo]

Re: Reading Reggae. All notated music requires the musician to have idiomatic knowledge. Classical musicians often can't read jazz charts and jazz musicians often can't read classical etc. I did a show recently which included Queen's 'Don't Stop Me Now'. When that tune was played, it was clear that some people could 'rock' and others couldn't. My early experiences were in Heavy Metal and, accordingly, I could make the chart live. When I was trying to play some Sweeny Todd stuff, it didn't gel because it was written for arco bass which I don't play so, even though it was an easy read (tied minims FFS), it didn't 'sing'. Nothing to do with reading but to do with understanding the idiom. A reggae bassline written down will work perfectly well but only if you understand reggae and its idiomatic characteristics.

For the record, my 'fixed view' on reading is for Basschat eyes only and serves as a foil for the 'you don't need to read' school of thought that many espouse all too readily here. I like where reading (and writing) has taken me over the years and value it highly. I advocate for that reason alone. If noone here ever reads a note again, I think it would be a shame but, at the same time, it doesn't matter a jot. I just wish I had met someone like me when I was 17, who could have given me this stuff ten years before I found it myself. Its a truckload more useful than two handed tapping.

[lojo]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1017694' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:36 PM']I too struggle with the concept that a sheet of musical 'language' (ie dots) will contain all the information to miraculously enable the bassist to play the piece with the required feel. If it's a well-known song, then I can understand the concept. But if I were to turn up at a rehearsal with a written score for my new jazz-funk tune, how would the players interpret it if I hadn't told them how I wanted it to sound?[/quote]

I am not a reader, but I guess that no reader on here would suggest that just because you can sight read notes and timing, that it automatically means that person can play it with perfect dynamic groove

I guess I stand to be correct by the readers


I can read english, but that doesn't mean that if I read some lines out a hamlet play I can deliver those lines in a way that would amaze

And someone with a natural talent for acting who could not read could listen to a tape of hamlet and then recite it much better than me


But the non reading acting talent guy, would be advised to learn to read, just to make his life easier if he wishes to read plays

Im talking b88888ocks, but then again we are debating natural feel over a learnt academic skill, they are not the same but can compliment each other in ways I wish i could but never will experience

[risingson]

[quote name='lojo' post='1017910' date='Nov 9 2010, 06:15 PM']And someone with a natural talent for acting who could not read could listen to a tape of hamlet and then recite it much better than me[/quote]

You're not talking bollocks, in fact you've highlighted the key issue for here which is that if you're a toss musician then don't expect being a reader is going to make you any better. That fact really should be been cleared up the best part of 11 pages ago.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='lojo' post='1017910' date='Nov 9 2010, 06:15 PM']I am not a reader, but I guess that no reader on here would suggest that just because you can sight read notes and timing, that it automatically means that person can play it with perfect dynamic groove

I guess I stand to be correct by the readers


I can read english, but that doesn't mean that if I read some lines out a hamlet play I can deliver those lines in a way that would amaze

And someone with a natural talent for acting who could not read could listen to a tape of hamlet and then recite it much better than me


But the non reading acting talent guy, would be advised to learn to read, just to make his life easier if he wishes to read plays

Im talking b88888ocks, but then again we are debating natural feel over a learnt academic skill, they are not the same but can compliment each other in ways I wish i could but never will experience[/quote]
So, if I want to be an actor, I'd be well advised to learn to read if I could possibly do so.

And, if I'm a musician, whether or not I can play with 'perfect dynamic groove' (whatever that is) is not dependent upon whether I can or can not read notation.

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1017694' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:36 PM']I too struggle with the concept that a sheet of musical 'language' (ie dots) will contain all the information to miraculously enable the bassist to play the piece with the required feel. Please correct me if I'm wrong.[/quote]
yes. a map is not the territory.

a map is a useful tool. but stare at it for too long and you'll miss the scenery.

Edited November 9, 2010 by phil.i.stein

[peteb]

Just a thought, but I would guess that Dood is one of the most technically accomplished players on here and is a professional musician. I have no idea whether he can read or not but I wonder how often he is called upon to read a score??

I’m guessing that he doesn’t do many orchestra pit gigs so I wonder how often he uses any reading skills he may have?

[lojo]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='1017975' date='Nov 9 2010, 07:03 PM']So, if I want to be an actor, I'd be well advised to learn to read if I could possibly do so.

And, if I'm a musician, whether or not I can play with 'perfect dynamic groove' (whatever that is) is not dependent upon whether I can or can not read notation.[/quote]

Both the natural actor and the musician would be advised to learn to read, as this can only assist their quest in that field, is what I was trying to say (maybe i can read but not write)


I have assumed "groove" as referred to in the OP is a reference to natural feel and talent, so I've called it "perfect dynamic groove"

Which if you have is fantastic, and if you can read also, well you half way to somewhere i have not even packed for yet



Surely we all agree groove is a gift, which alone is fantastic, but with theory also it would be much enhanced and honed

Edited November 9, 2010 by lojo

[lojo]

The OP stated "theory"

Are we confusing "theory" and "reading" in this debate, I think I have, correct me if I am wrong but although they are connected they are different skills and knowledge?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='lojo' post='1018093' date='Nov 9 2010, 08:43 PM']Both the natural actor and the musician would be advised to learn to read, as this can only assist their quest in that field, is what I was trying to say (maybe i can read but not write)[/quote]
That is how I understood you. Maybe I'm the one who can't write.

[quote name='lojo' post='1018093' date='Nov 9 2010, 08:43 PM']I have assumed "groove" as referred to in the OP is a reference to natural feel and talent, so I've called it "perfect dynamic groove"

Which if you have is fantastic, and if you can read also, well you half way to somewhere i have not even packed for yet

Surely we all agree groove is a gift, which alone is fantastic, but with theory also it would be much enhanced and honed[/quote]
I used to know a pianist who had fantastic natural talent. He'd never had any lessons, never practiced, but he seemed able to play along with anything with a high level of taste, feel, and dexterity. However, he was wholly incapable of turning up for a rehearsal or a gig on time - that's if he showed up at all. (Slightly off topic: I've no idea what happened to him, I haven't seen him in 25 years but he owes me £150.)

[xilddx]

[quote name='risingson' post='1017950' date='Nov 9 2010, 06:46 PM']You're not talking bollocks, in fact you've highlighted the key issue for here which is that if you're a toss musician then don't expect being a reader is going to make you any better. That fact really should be been cleared up the best part of 11 pages ago.[/quote]
I cleared it up about 8 pages ago when I said a cabbage with theory is still a cabbage.

[AndyTravis]

Just an addition to my post earlier..

Had my 1st theory lesson last night, and although it's not any strict, formal training - I really enjoyed it.

I'm just doing it to see how I get on with it, and to refresh my outlook as a player.

Doubt i'll lose much of 'me' in the process in fact Mike (my teacher) wants to keep as much of my own playing style intact, which was a nice comment from him.

[stingrayPete1977]

On a serious note then, If you were to start right back at page one what book should you buy? Nothing heavy just a simple to read straight forward book that would get you reading off the page and get you used to going straight to the right note without thinking to hard. No chordal stuff or arpeggios, just a good simple book even if it meant the first 20 pages only needed scanning through for most of us.

[fingerz]

[quote name='lojo' post='1018097' date='Nov 9 2010, 08:45 PM']The OP stated "theory"

Are we confusing "theory" and "reading" in this debate, I think I have, correct me if I am wrong but although they are connected they are different skills and knowledge?[/quote]


I agree. It seems the subject of READING is the focus here for many people, not THEORY as the thread states. Theory is the knowledge of music in a formal sense, reading requires theoretical knowledge but is not theory in itself. Theory is often taught in a "do it this way, the right way" fashion, and not used to enhance your own concept and knowledge. I fail to see how learning theory is negative if you get the opportunity to do so. It's not like it requires you to become all pompous and soul-less in your playing, that's down to the individual right?.. For the record I don't look down on those who know no theory, I find it hard to get my head around the Theory of Theory on here.. if you know what I mean?

[xilddx]

[quote name='fingerz' post='1018193' date='Nov 9 2010, 09:58 PM']I agree. It seems the subject of READING is the focus here for many people, not THEORY as the thread states. Theory is the knowledge of music in a formal sense, reading requires theoretical knowledge but is not theory in itself. Theory is often taught in a "do it this way, the right way" fashion, and not used to enhance your own concept and knowledge. I fail to see how learning theory is negative if you get the opportunity to do so. It's not like it requires you to become all pompous and soul-less in your playing, that's down to the individual right?.. For the record I don't look down on those who know no theory, I find it hard to get my head around the Theory of Theory on here.. if you know what I mean?[/quote]
I'm afraid if you really want to learn theory in any real meaningful way, you will need to read standard music notation because that's how it's taught.

Like any theory, you have to manipulate it in a way that helps you achieve your aims. Your aims change over time. Theory generally speaking will go hand in hand with learning how to play your instrument with a high level of technical dexterity. As you improve either or both, you may get very excited and wish to play or write music which takes advantage of your new found skills. That is perfectly natural and many people are afraid of change.

I think when people say they don't wish to be influenced adversely by learning theory, they mean they are afraid they may get excited and develop a want to be Shilly Beehan or Wictor Vooten, and lose their love of playing the blues, lose their band, and their friends. They may suddenly develop a desire to eat at Michelin Starred restaurants, or start hanging out at exclusive jazz salons and lose what they feel are their roots. It's all very personal and I don't think there are many answers to be found other than to go with your own instincts.

One thing I know is that it is very easy to get sucked into judging others who are different from ourselves, lord knows I do.

Edited November 9, 2010 by silddx

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1017858' date='Nov 9 2010, 05:00 PM']I like where reading (and writing) has taken me over the years and value it highly. ... Its a truckload more useful than two handed tapping.[/quote]

And hands up how many of you tried two-handed tapping before you tried reading music?

I know I did!

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1018244' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:07 PM']And hands up how many of you tried two-handed tapping before you tried reading music?

I know I did![/quote]
fnaar.

i only hope you were self-taught...

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='1017386' date='Nov 9 2010, 12:20 PM']Can you point to any such statement? Or does it only happen inside your own head?




Really? Who are these people, and where have they said such things?

I don't see it. I see thread after thread about how reading and/or theory isn't important. I don't see any stating that no matter how much feel or groove a player may have, they aren't worth anything unless they can read music.

What I see are insecure people who feel the need to downplay and de-value the skills they don't possess themselves. I used to hang out on a sampler/groovestation website, as I used to use a hardware sequencer for MIDI arranging, and you'd find the same thing there - kids who could only work a beatbox going on about how just because they'd never bothered to learn to play a musical instrument that didn't make them any less of a musician than anyone else and decrying the "snobbery" of those who thought otherwise.

All just a bit sad, and reminiscent of the scene in Time Bandits where Napoleon, trying to demonstrate that shortness is no impediment to greatness, sits and reels off the names of every diminutive commander in history he can think of, along with their precise height, and in the process simply proves that he is deeply obsessed with his own lack of stature.


EDIT: just for the record, although I have a fair knowledge of theory and can read music, I am a rubbish sight-reader, and not a particularly accomplished musician. If I had to rely on my musical ability to make a living I'd go hungry pretty quickly, and I have no doubt that either Pete Academy or Nigel silddx could play me under the table any day of the week.[/quote]

Any chance you could be a bit more civil with your responses?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1018244' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:07 PM']And hands up how many of you tried two-handed tapping before you tried reading music?

I know I did![/quote]

Me too. Jeff Berlin's 'Motherlode', tunes off Stu Hamm's 'Radio Free Albemuth', some Dave Lee Roth era Billy Sheehan. And I never used any of it again. I have since recognised it for the shallow circus trick it generally is and have focussed my energies on more meaningful (and less time consuming) musical study.

I think bass tapping is almost universally the worst sound you can get out of a bass without driving over it....

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1018188' date='Nov 9 2010, 09:53 PM']On a serious note then, If you were to start right back at page one what book should you buy? Nothing heavy just a simple to read straight forward book that would get you reading off the page and get you used to going straight to the right note without thinking to hard. No chordal stuff or arpeggios, just a good simple book even if it meant the first 20 pages only needed scanning through for most of us. [/quote]

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0793565189/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d5_i3?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1ZZEEMGPFRPZG3PE3Y36&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=467128533&pf_rd_i=468294"]reading book[/url]

And if you get it can I have a copy of the cd since I've lost mine

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1018244' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:07 PM']And hands up how many of you tried two-handed tapping before you tried reading music?

I know I did![/quote]

Guilty as well - Metallica the intro to One

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1018244' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:07 PM']And hands up how many of you tried two-handed tapping before you tried reading music?

I know I did![/quote]
I have never tried one-handed let alone two-handed tapping. The very thought makes me feel faint.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1018408' date='Nov 10 2010, 09:35 AM']... I think bass tapping is almost universally the worst sound you can get out of a bass without driving over it....[/quote]
Bilbo, do you have an mp3 of that? I'd like to hear it.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1018408' date='Nov 10 2010, 09:35 AM']Me too. Jeff Berlin's 'Motherlode', tunes off Stu Hamm's 'Radio Free Albemuth', some Dave Lee Roth era Billy Sheehan. And I never used any of it again. I have since recognised it for the shallow circus trick it generally is and have focussed my energies on more meaningful (and less time consuming) musical study.

I think bass tapping is almost universally the worst sound you can get out of a bass without driving over it....[/quote]


tapping ..ha ha.... been there and lost it. ..thankfully

It is almost like slap riffola.
I wonder what the percentage is of people practise time V actual playing time at gigs with these styles..?