Theory versus Groove

[tauzero]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016822' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:53 PM']But playing the correct notes doesn't need a knowledge of theory. Your ear should tell you if the notes are wrong.[/quote]
I sometimes find, when I'm tired, that my ear tells me I'm out of tune when I'm not. Instrument tuned correctly, fingers playing correct string and correct fret [1], no-one else in the band is staring at me in horror, yet it sounds wrong. This'll tend to happen two or three hours into a rehearsal, and doesn't happen every time by any means.

[1] I'm used to it when I'm playing fretless...

[fingerz]

Tapping is a great example of using a new found skill for purposes that aren't exactly benificial to our aims as players, but many of us have learnt some tapping chops then thought 'Maybe not for me, but I can impress my mates now!'... This strikes me as exactly the same thing people feel about theory over these pages. That learning it will effect your playing and make you want to show off what you know, and take over from what you feel is musical, or appropriate. I guess it's something in our human nature that brings it on, but once the novelty has worn off you would find more confidence in your instrument through acquired abilities, curiosity and experimenting. To feel like 'I can tap, but I chose not to', relates to a respect for music acquisition that is found in all of us.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1017694' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:36 PM']Regarding Silddx's reggae-playing comment, I think I have to agree to some point. When I first started playing as a teenager, me and a percussionist started a band. He was part of a local black community, so the band consisted mainly of Jamaican musicians, including his very charismatic saxophonist dad. These guys would often push to play reggae, and I was totally out of my depth. They had grown up with the music and had an unbelievable feel for it that would take years for anyone else to master.[/quote]
Reggae's dead easy if you know the seekrit, which is that the bass player is too stoned to remember to play on 1, and by the time he remembers, he puts a few extra notes in to make up for it.

[lojo]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1018408' date='Nov 10 2010, 09:35 AM']I think bass tapping is almost universally the worst sound you can get out of a bass without driving over it....[/quote]


If i saw a link to both sounds, id most likely click on the driving over it one

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1018752' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:40 PM']Reggae's dead easy if you know the seekrit, which is that the bass player is too stoned to remember to play on 1, and by the time he remembers, he puts a few extra notes in to make up for it.[/quote]

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1018267' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:38 PM']Any chance you could be a bit more civil with your responses?[/quote]

Not my most diplomatic effort, I'll grant you. Sorry if you found it unduly abrasive, but then playing all that 'Dan music I expect you're used to taking the smooth with the smooth (I'm just making it worse now, aren't I).

Peace to readers and non-readers alike. When one considers the vast extent of human knowledge, it is clearly inevitable that we are all ignorant in more areas than we are knowledgeable, and, as silddx pointed out above, we all have to make choices and prioritise how we spend our time. Ignorance is therefore not always a cause for shame, though it is never a cause for pride.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='1018976' date='Nov 10 2010, 04:41 PM']Not my most diplomatic effort, I'll grant you. Sorry if you found it unduly abrasive, but then playing all that 'Dan music I expect you're used to taking the smooth with the smooth (I'm just making it worse now, aren't I).

Peace to readers and non-readers alike. When one considers the vast extent of human knowledge, it is clearly inevitable that we are all ignorant in more areas than we are knowledgeable, and, as silddx pointed out above, we all have to make choices and prioritise how we spend our time. Ignorance is therefore not always a cause for shame, though it is never a cause for pride.[/quote]

Fair enough. I'm down your way in January and didn't want to get beaten up.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1018431' date='Nov 10 2010, 09:53 AM'][url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0793565189/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d5_i3?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1ZZEEMGPFRPZG3PE3Y36&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=467128533&pf_rd_i=468294"]reading book[/url]

And if you get it can I have a copy of the cd since I've lost mine [/quote]

Anyone want to second this? If so I will get hold of it. Thanks

PS I will send you a copy of the CD no problem.

Edited November 10, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[lojo]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1019054' date='Nov 10 2010, 05:31 PM']Anyone want to second this? If so I will get hold of it. Thanks

PS I will send you a copy of the CD no problem.[/quote]


Im in also as a basschat reading YTS boy, as soon as the book gets a bit more of a thumbs up

[xilddx]

[quote name='lojo' post='1019117' date='Nov 10 2010, 06:19 PM']Im in also as a basschat reading YTS boy, as soon as the book gets a bit more of a thumbs up[/quote]
I could be tempted to get this book. I just find the whole idea of learning to read rather daunting and wonder if I will be able to commit to learning, I can get very lazy if not pushed and find it difficult.

Is the book really good Alistair?

Edited November 10, 2010 by silddx

[stingrayPete1977]

This would be amazing if this thread actually turns out useful! I really will have a go if we gets some more good advice or more thumbs up on this book. Im sure a progress thread would bring some trolls in and out but overall could turn out interesting in the long (possibly very long) run?

Anymore book suggestions or seconds on the one in the link?

It must cover the basics, If its too heavy from the off it will get chucked in the wardrobe with the others. As I said before I dont mind if the first few pages etc are only needed for a quick refresher and Im guessing we are all at various levels anyway?

[Doddy]

I've not used that particular book,but judging by the other 'Bass Builders' books I'm guessing that it'll
be pretty good.

This looks like a good book too

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Reading-Bass-Complete-Essential/dp/0793581974/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1289416215&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Reading-Bass...6215&sr=8-1[/url]

[xilddx]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1019184' date='Nov 10 2010, 06:58 PM']This would be amazing if this thread actually turns out useful! I really will have a go if we gets some more good advice or more thumbs up on this book. Im sure a progress thread would bring some trolls in and out but overall could turn out interesting in the long (possibly very long) run?

Anymore book suggestions or seconds on the one in the link?

It must cover the basics, If its too heavy from the off it will get chucked in the wardrobe with the others. As I said before I dont mind if the first few pages etc are only needed for a quick refresher and Im guessing we are all at various levels anyway?[/quote]
Cool! I'll certainly give it a shot. I do get tired of it easily though if I can't see any progress. I know some of the basics, but recognising the notes on the staff I find tiresome, but that's just repetition. I know chunks of theory too, but very bitty and it all needs joining up and improving massively. I have a pretty good ear, I can hear intervals and put a name to them quite often, sing complex bass lines and stuff. I think it would be great to be able to score and sight read and theoretically understand what I'm doing and how it relates to my music.

I'm up for it, hope I'm man enough for the challenge

[skej21]

IMO this is the best Bass book for a range of learners;

The Bass Bible - Paul Westwood
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Bible-Verlag-Paul-Westwood/dp/3927190675"]http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Bible-Verlag-Pa...d/dp/3927190675[/url]

It has CDs to help those who learn by ear, has notation & tab together to help you learn to read (or just read what is written in the way that's best for you) and then has a range of content starting at Motown and groove based stuff (covering key players such as James Jamerson, Stanley Clarke, Chuck Rainey), moving through world music (African, Latin, Middle East, Guinea etc etc) and moving into pieces that help you develop more advanced techniques (such as slap bass, natural harmonics/artifical harmonics/chordal harmonics and Jazz/Progressive lines)

[Doddy]

[quote name='skej21' post='1019240' date='Nov 10 2010, 07:34 PM']IMO this is the best Bass book for a range of learners;

The Bass Bible - Paul Westwood
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Bible-Verlag-Paul-Westwood/dp/3927190675"]http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Bible-Verlag-Pa...d/dp/3927190675[/url]

It has CDs to help those who learn by ear, has notation & tab together to help you learn to read (or just read what is written in the way that's best for you) and then has a range of content starting at Motown and groove based stuff (covering key players such as James Jamerson, Stanley Clarke, Chuck Rainey), moving through world music (African, Latin, Middle East, Guinea etc etc) and moving into pieces that help you develop more advanced techniques (such as slap bass, natural harmonics/artifical harmonics/chordal harmonics and Jazz/Progressive lines)[/quote]

That is a great book,and Paul's a top bloke, but for those thinking of learning to read I'd recommend a book without tab,just to remove any temptation.
Otherwise,I'd recommend this book any day.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='1019240' date='Nov 10 2010, 07:34 PM']IMO this is the best Bass book for a range of learners;

The Bass Bible - Paul Westwood
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Bible-Verlag-Paul-Westwood/dp/3927190675"]http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Bible-Verlag-Pa...d/dp/3927190675[/url]

It has CDs to help those who learn by ear, has notation & tab together to help you learn to read (or just read what is written in the way that's best for you) and then has a range of content starting at Motown and groove based stuff (covering key players such as James Jamerson, Stanley Clarke, Chuck Rainey), moving through world music (African, Latin, Middle East, Guinea etc etc) and moving into pieces that help you develop more advanced techniques (such as slap bass, natural harmonics/artifical harmonics/chordal harmonics and Jazz/Progressive lines)[/quote]

This thread now needs to be retitled "Book Wars"

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1019262' date='Nov 10 2010, 07:48 PM']That is a great book,and Paul's a top bloke, but for those thinking of learning to read I'd recommend a book without tab,just to remove any temptation.
Otherwise,I'd recommend this book any day.[/quote]
Tab kinda destroys the point doesn't it? I always found tab to be horrible to learn from anyway.

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='1019267' date='Nov 10 2010, 07:50 PM']Tab kinda destroys the point doesn't it? I always found tab to be horrible to learn from anyway.[/quote]

I've found that this book is really useful for people who are already regular users of tablature, because in Paul's book, he uses Tab with stems to mark the notation. I've found this makes for an easier transition for people who feel comfortable with tab but want to move into reading notation as they can concentrate on rhythm notation whilst still having tab to mark out the notes/frets.

I find this then makes it easier to wean them off tab and then they feel more comfortable when the tab is removed altogether and replaced with notation.

I do agree with Doddy though, some students need to have it removed completely early on, or they use it as an easy/lazy option.

[Marvin]

[quote name='silddx' post='1019267' date='Nov 10 2010, 07:50 PM']Tab kinda destroys the point doesn't it? I always found tab to be horrible to learn from anyway.[/quote]

Hal Leonard's Bass Method, by Ed Friedland, series is odd for this very reason. The first book is entirely stave, then for some unknown reason he introduces TAB. It doesn't matter how hard I tried to stop looking at the TAB, I've got a lazy brain and just started using the TAB fingerings and well the rest is history.

The middle line on the bass stave is a D, that's about it for me really oh and the bottom line is a G - I sort of take my bearings from that, but I can't sight read anyway so it doesn't matter.

[xilddx]

I'd like to know what Jake might recommend. I am a professional trainer and been trained as a trainer - I had a lesson with Jake last year and if anyone I've ever met knows how people learn, and what individual's learning styles and requirements are, it's Jake.

Maybe there's a book out there which Jake feels more or less accommodates different learning styles and needs?

Not dissing anyone else's opinions of course, I'd just like to know Jake's opinion too.

[steve-soar]

"I am a professional trainer and been trained as a trainer"

I see you as one of these.

[attachment=63647:samba.jpg]

[xilddx]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='1019288' date='Nov 10 2010, 08:07 PM']"I am a professional trainer and been trained as a trainer"

I see you as one of these.

[attachment=63647:samba.jpg][/quote]
Eugh! They are disgusting mate! Is that how you see me!? I'm strickly a Puma man

[lojo]

Now i am confused, which book

Tonight I am going to get some bass scores for lines I don't know, or don't know that well and start to work out the notes

If someone wrote the letters for 1/4 or 8th notes, I could read and play in time as I know the fret board well, so I am going to aim to start to associate dots with letters

When I can decide what book then I can start learning to understand the rhythm and so on


I cant see me using this in my covers bands, but I do play in church and sometimes I am working from sheets, strangely following the chords at the top of the sheets I am starting to look at the dots to get the feel, even though I don't understand what I see, I am starting to anticipate what the rest of the band are going to do based on what I see ahead on the sheet, that may sound weird but its happening

Based on that I think I may as well go for it, I am confident, setting myself the goal to read and play basic rhythm pattens in real time

This thread has inspired me, because my posts have always had me say, if you have talent, you may as well learn to read, so I may as well take my own advice, not saying i've talent, but I am playing already at least

No promises, as I've got a job, kids, bands, footy and so on, but as someone said 20 mins a day, (i spend more than that on this forum )




Just a note re books, perhaps the guys on here who have shown interest can buy different ones, we can start a thread sharing some info and perhaps swap books by the postman a few months down the line

Edited November 11, 2010 by lojo

[Bilbo]

Learning to read music does not require a 400 page tome but a short 'these are what the dots mean' explanation. THe difficulty (which is less so now) is finding source material to [i]practice[/i] reading. In my day, the books were full of Campdown Races, Franki and Johnny and excerpts from The Trout and had no value for me as a player then or now. Nowadasy there are more options (many transcriptions are on here).

FOr instance, learning what each note means is easy. Take a blank sheet of music paper and write a series of notes in straight crotchets, four beats to the bar (i.e. no rhythms to read). Write out 8 bars of two notes, say A and B in a randon sequence (ABBAABAABABBAABABABBABABAABAB, for instance) - concentrate on reading those two notes alone until you get the 8 bars right (if you find you have learned the sequence, write out another one - you are learning to read, not to play this sequence of notes). Then Write out eight bars using only A, B and C. THen try 16 bars of A, B, C & D. and so on. I recommend you don't learn those mnemonics (All Cows Eat Grass etc) because they tie you into a process that slows you down. Just learn two notes, then add a third then a fourth and so on. You will be reading sraight crotchets in no time. Then you can start looking at reading rhythms after you know what the notes are.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1019748' date='Nov 11 2010, 09:40 AM']Learning to read music does not require a 400 page tome but a short 'these are what the dots mean' explanation. THe difficulty (which is less so now) is finding source material to [i]practice[/i] reading. In my day, the books were full of Campdown Races, Franki and Johnny and excerpts from The Trout and had no value for me as a player then or now. Nowadasy there are more options (many transcriptions are on here).

FOr instance, learning what each note means is easy. Take a blank sheet of music paper and write a series of notes in straight crotchets, four beats to the bar (i.e. no rhythms to read). Write out 8 bars of two notes, say A and B in a randon sequence (ABBAABAABABBAABABABBABABAABAB, for instance) - concentrate on reading those two notes alone until you get the 8 bars right (if you find you have learned the sequence, write out another one - you are learning to read, not to play this sequence of notes). Then Write out eight bars using only A, B and C. THen try 16 bars of A, B, C & D. and so on. I recommend you don't learn those mnemonics (All Cows Eat Grass etc) because they tie you into a process that slows you down. Just learn two notes, then add a third then a fourth and so on. You will be reading sraight crotchets in no time. Then you can start looking at reading rhythms after you know what the notes are.[/quote]
That sounds like EXCELLENT advice Bilbo. I learned the all cows eat grass way and it actually does slow me down.

Thanks.

EDIT: Changed from VERY GOOD to EXCELLENT.

Edited November 11, 2010 by silddx