Theory versus Groove

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016469' date='Nov 8 2010, 03:36 PM']What did he say? I can't read.....

Can you imagine how limited the internet would be for you if you didn't read? Now transfer that to music [/quote]
You would get around that with technology like blind, or people with impaired vision, do.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1016480' date='Nov 8 2010, 03:46 PM']Reading has been a pretty irrelevant skill for most people for most of human history. Western musical theory has been irrelevant to most people for most of human history, and still is to a large part of the world![/quote]

And how many wonderful stories are lost forever?

I read somewhere that there is a relationship between literacy and progress and that this relates to the ability of a literate society to record its ideas and replicate concepts easily (like how to manufacture things etc).

My point is simple. If Fred, in Australia can read music, and Bert in the UK can write it, they can communiate ideas. More to the point, if Fred is in France and can write it, he can communicate ideas to Ivan in Russia, who speaks neither French or English.. More to the point, if Fred can write music in 1926 and Bert can read it is 2010, the idea lives on. If Fred can write it down but Bert can't, then the idea dies with Fred. Its a more efficient and effective way of communicating, if all parties are able. If reading is not a requirement, a reader can still play and groove. If reading is a requirement, a non-reader won't know what groove to play until it is too late.

When I do a reading rehearsal, we can get through 20+ tunes a session. If we learn by rote, we get three down if we are lucky (depending on the complexity of the music). I can turn up at a recording session (like I did last week) with players I barely know and record 5 tunes in 3 hours without any rehearsal.

Why anyone would not want to be able do that is beyond me.

I believe that people who, albeit by unconscious implication, advocate for ignorance in others in order to allow themselves to feel ok about their own are not doing themselves or anyone else any favours. If you can't read, its nothing to be ashamed of.

But it is certainly nothing to be proud of either.

Read the signature

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016525' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:22 PM']And how many wonderful stories are lost forever?

I read somewhere that there is a relationship between literacy and progress and that this relates to the ability of a literate society to record its ideas and replicate concepts easily (like how to manufacture things etc).

My point is simple. If Fred, in Australia can read music, and Bert in the UK can write it, they can communiate ideas. More to the point, if Fred is in France and can write it, he can communicate ideas to Ivan in Russia, who speaks neither French or English.. More to the point, if Fred can write music in 1926 and Bert can read it is 2010, the idea lives on. If Fred can write it down but Bert can't, then the idea dies with Fred. Its a more efficient and effective way of communicating, if all parties are able. If reading is not a requirement, a reader can still play and groove. If reading is a requirement, a non-reader won't know what groove to play until it is too late.

When I do a reading rehearsal, we can get through 20+ tunes a session. If we learn by rote, we get three down if we are lucky (depending on the complexity of the music). I can turn up at a recording session (like I did last week) with players I barely know and record 5 tunes in 3 hours without any rehearsal.

Why anyone would not want to be able do that is beyond me.

I believe that people who, albeit by unconscious implication, advocate for ignorance in others in order to allow themselves to feel ok about their own are not doing themselves or anyone else any favours. If you can't read, its nothing to be ashamed of.

But it is certainly nothing to be proud of either.

Read the signature [/quote]
So much for the oral tradition, which tends to separate the wheat from the chaff over time. Music notation means that Shaddupa Yer Face is here forever. I'm just kidding, sort of.

No-one is advocating ignorance.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='silddx' post='1016533' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:27 PM']So much for the oral tradition,[/quote]

Its overrated

I do think people are advocating for ignorance, albeit unconsciously. We al do it all the time - its how we get out of doing the laundry.

In order to feel good about the ways in which we behave, we need to convince ourselves that our choices are valid. If we choose not to read, we need to feel that that choice is legitimate and not simply a case of us not havign invested in what is necessary to be a fully developed musician. So we fill our heads with little lies and haf-truths that make this an ok choice: so & so can't read and he is great ergo I can't read and I too can be great. Additionally, if I can convince everyone else that this is so, I will be affirmed in my belief and can ignore that nagging doubt that I have in the back of my mind that I am missing out on something. Something wonderful.

We you can't and you are.

[algmusic]

I was very hesitant to comment on this feed.. Bass is my second instrument and I would say I have much more theory knowledge in drums. However, The biggest part of my playing is groove on both instruments..

I would spend hours practising the simple things well and make the simple things 'feel' good, then gradually build on that. The focus is always the feel. Music is art not maths. When I learn more theory. I learn the theory.. then make it groove otherwise it's just theory.. All the top players will tell you you gotta be able to play the simple things well.. that's what pays the bills and think that this really over looked especially in the bass.. Your a good player when people notice that you're not there.

I know some very technical players that are still trying to find their groove or don't realise they have none and can play some very complicated pieces, but it doesn't feel good..

When I teach I get the players with natural feel and emotion in their playing to get some theory in their arsenal to enable them to do more as I found personally, it helped me alot and for those that were great readers and could play anything thrown at them, i'd get them to throw away the book and listen.. and feel the music..

To be honest it's hard for both sides, but I think you can teach both, but with some it comes more natural than others on both side..

There's plus on both side of the coin. If I had to live with one, it would be groove for me as my Theory builds on the foundation of groove which is what music feel good. That said groove without control is a mess..

In a nutshell, you really need groove and some theory...

[Bilbo]

All this 'groove is king' stuff is missing the fact that grooving is as theoretical a concept as advanced harmony. Making a good performance great is about a wholistic approach to the music. A great groove with a few bum notes is a flawed a result as all the correct notes and no feel. Groove is theory.

And maths is art.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016566' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:53 PM']Its overrated

I do think people are advocating for ignorance, albeit unconsciously. We al do it all the time - its how we get out of doing the laundry.

In order to feel good about the ways in which we behave, we need to convince ourselves that our choices are valid. If we choose not to read, we need to feel that that choice is legitimate and not simply a case of us not havign invested in what is necessary to be a fully developed musician. So we fill our heads with little lies and haf-truths that make this an ok choice: so & so can't read and he is great ergo I can't read and I too can be great. Additionally, if I can convince everyone else that this is so, I will be affirmed in my belief and can ignore that nagging doubt that I have in the back of my mind that I am missing out on something. Something wonderful.

We you can't and you are.[/quote]
Dear Bilbo, it is about balancing priorities. I have other interests and demands outside of music. My bands, and my abilities, render my personal need to read music of far less importance than my need to go fishing, or to be able to cook well and expand my food knowledge, to be with friends, listen to the radio .. I enjoy all these distractions, learning to read music would be a waste of my time at the moment, i can't justify the skill, I am balancing my priorities.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016525' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:22 PM']....And how many wonderful stories are lost forever?

I believe that people who, albeit by unconscious implication, advocate for ignorance in others in order to allow themselves to feel ok about their own are not doing themselves or anyone else any favours....[/quote]
For millennia, in every culture, all the "wonderful" stories were passed down from one generation to the next quite satisfactorily without writing.

No one's advocating ignorance. Unfortunately you and others have twisted the meaning and intent of the original question.

Depending on a musician’s journey, theory may not be required, but groove, swing, feel or whatever your genre calls it will always be important.

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016574' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:02 PM']Groove is theory.

And maths is art.[/quote]
groove is art

maths is theory.

[risingson]

Unfortunately no one takes up guitar or bass with a view to learning the instrument like they would, say, a violin for example. Classical music dictates that you must learn to read from the word go. Conversely, most kids pick up a guitar at a young age because you want to play the rock music you love or look like Dave Grohl playing with the Foo Fighters or whatever so the ambition or 'seed' to learn theory is never planted in the head of that person. I did this exact thing, until I joined a big band when I was 16 or so and learnt to read and get by with chord charts. I then went on to study music at Uni, and am currently in a position where I play in my own band making my own music and have no read 'need' to put my reading skills to use. However, once you've learnt to read, those skills will be with you forever, it's like riding a bike. If I get the opportunity to take on a reading gig tomorrow for a bit of extra cash then I could take it. It's all about having as many strings to your bow as possible.

The groove OR theory thing is stupid. I have an excellent ear and a good feel, and whilst this might a bit egotistical of me to say it's true, and I rely on most of the time to translate what I hear onto my bass. Theory is something I struggled with for a while but I've got a good grip of it nowadays and it compliments my good ear by allowing me to vocalise or write down what I hear in music, not just bass lines but melodies, rhythmic lines, alto, tenor parts, whatever if I wanted to. It never hurts to know more.

Edited November 8, 2010 by risingson

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='risingson' post='1016590' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:15 PM']..It never hurts to know more.[/quote]
that is the qoute of the thread.

it's not essential to learn your scales.

our western scales are just as limiting in terms of musical language as our 12-toned instruments are.

we should all try to see the bigger picture, now that digital instruments/technology allow us to.

the old guard-will just have to adapt.

[algmusic]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1016574' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:02 PM']All this 'groove is king' stuff is missing the fact that grooving is as theoretical a concept as advanced harmony. Making a good performance great is about a wholistic approach to the music. A great groove with a few bum notes is a flawed a result as all the correct notes and no feel. Groove is theory.

And maths is art.[/quote]

I disagree grooving is theoretical.. I had a student that was grade 6 and the friend of mine had a student that was grade 8. The grade 6 student was ALWAYS used for gigs and he never played a wrong note, but he played with feel.

I'm not excusing wrong notes..

It's the reason why people hire bass players and drummers instead of using midi/electronics.. That stuff can't groove like humans...

[algmusic]

[quote name='silddx' post='1016575' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:04 PM']Dear Bilbo, it is about balancing priorities. I have other interests and demands outside of music. My bands, and my abilities, render my personal need to read music of far less importance than my need to go fishing, or to be able to cook well and expand my food knowledge, to be with friends, listen to the radio .. I enjoy all these distractions, learning to read music would be a waste of my time at the moment, i can't justify the skill, I am balancing my priorities.[/quote]

+1

Learning to play 24/13 is nice but I have other interests and limited time and the most bands I work with play the more conventional time sigs :-)

[chris_b]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1016616' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:36 PM']....Learning to play 24/13 is nice....[/quote]
I bet Bilbo can play in 24/13. I must have missed that chapter!

[stingrayPete1977]

Nice to see we got this thread all wrapped up while I have been at work

[Mr. Foxen]

Is "groove" related to [url="http://musicmachinery.com/2010/05/21/the-swinger/"]"swing"?[/url]

[xilddx]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1016622' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:38 PM']I bet Bilbo can play in 24/13. I must have missed that chapter![/quote]
I can play polyrhythmically over odd time sigs and I do it by ear and feel. That's not something theory can help you with very much, and although reading would enable you to, you would still need to feel it or it will sound dead as dead. Notation is extremely useful but it can only convey basic intent in terms of feel. That's why you need a conductor-musicologist for orchestra.

[risingson]

Also, I hate the word groove, it's bandied around too much to describe bass players and drummers often in a totally contrived way. But that's just me being massively cynical.

[Doddy]

[quote name='risingson' post='1016590' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:15 PM']Unfortunately no one takes up guitar or bass with a view to learning the instrument like they would, say, a violin for example. Classical music dictates that you must learn to read from the word go. Conversely, most kids pick up a guitar at a young age because you want to play the rock music you love or look like Dave Grohl playing with the Foo Fighters or whatever so the ambition or 'seed' to learn theory is never planted in the head of that person.[/quote]

This is very true. It's great that people want to take up instruments but it's a shame that those who take up instruments like bass,guitar and drums have
kind of shunned some of the more traditional methods of learning. Horn and string players(and alot of keys players) learn to read as part of the basics-
why should guitar,bass,drums be any different?

[quote name='chris_b' post='1016622' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:38 PM']I bet Bilbo can play in 24/13. I must have missed that chapter![/quote]

I bet he can't


[quote name='silddx' post='1016648' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:10 PM']Notation is extremely useful but it can only convey basic intent in terms of feel.[/quote]

To a point. You can get a hell of a lot of information on to the page,and a group of good players will be able to make it come alive.
Last week I did a couple of theatre gigs with an act from Las Vegas. The band (all nine of us) sight read the charts and totally nailed it in terms
of groove and feel,as well as being tight as hell. So much so,that we've now been offered a good theatre tour next year. Everything that we needed
was on the charts.

[skej21]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1016679' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:31 PM']I bet he can't [/quote]

I bet he could if he just "felt" it like silddx

Who needs theory to play complex time signatures. Subdivisions were just created for all the beginners who couldn't "feel" 5/8 against 11/8. Bloody amateurs!

Edited November 8, 2010 by skej21

[skankdelvar]

Any attempt to take an absolute and final position on (Theory / Reading / Whatever) versus (Feel / Groove / Whatever) is doomed to ignominious ridicule. Because the value of a particular skill or a specific approach is not a universal constant. It is dependant on context and circumstance.

There are just too many variables for anyone to state that with honest confidence that one approach or the other is best - or even mildly preferable - without honourably adding the caveat that each individual's mileage may vary.

Absolutism is an abhorrence.

Edited November 8, 2010 by skankdelvar

[Doddy]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1016689' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:35 PM']There are just too many variables for anyone to state that with honest confidence that one approach or the other is best - or even mildly preferable - without honourably adding the caveat that each individual's mileage may vary.[/quote]

Go on then...... I'll put my arse on the line and clearly state that the 'best' approach is to be comfortable in both theory/reading
and groove/feel.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1016689' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:35 PM']Any attempt to take an absolute and final position on (Theory / Reading / Whatever) versus (Feel / Groove / Whatever) is doomed to ignominious ridicule. Because the value of a particular skill or a specific approach is not a universal constant. It is dependant on context and circumstance.

There are just too many variables for anyone to state that with honest confidence that one approach or the other is best - or even mildly preferable - without honourably adding the caveat that each individual's mileage may vary.

Absolutism is an abhorrence.[/quote]
Are you absolutely sure about that?

[xilddx]

[quote name='risingson' post='1016659' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:17 PM']Also, I hate the word groove, it's bandied around too much to describe bass players and drummers often in a totally contrived way. But that's just me being massively cynical.[/quote]
I tend to agree, I think it's overused and misunderstood, and really, it doesn't mean sh*t.

Music is all about taste. Theory and notation can't teach you taste, and it cannot make you into a musician WITH taste. We are all immensely limited as musicians, even if we are Mozart, Zappa, Alain Caron. Learning theory and notation makes you less limited, however only by a little when all things are considered.

I get the feeling that some of the literate musicians on here really believe that learning all that theoretical and visual stuff about what is an auditory medium will elevate one to great musical heights, when really it is only a matter of efficiency, it is a facilitator, and if it is taught badly it can have a very negative effect on the pupil. But all that matters in the end is if YOU and OTHER PEOPLE like your music, whether its a four note penny whistle melody or a concerto for full orchestra. Your musical desires will dictate your toolbox if you think about music intelligently and soulfully.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='1016700' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:41 PM']Are you absolutely sure about that?[/quote]
Er - fairly sure. Let me have a think about it.

Yes, absolutely abhorrent. Except in certain circumstances.

Edited November 8, 2010 by skankdelvar