Theory versus Groove

[Mog]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017412' date='Nov 9 2010, 12:41 PM']there is absolutely no way to put down on paper how to play reggae that has the desired effect on the other band members and the audience. Funk is similar, it's a way of life.[/quote]

I cant agree with you on that point bud. Tab yes but sheet music no. A proper score will give you everything you need except instructions re eq/tone.

I think someone touched on the point earlier about your ears knowing what to do next. IMO, (and its just an opinion) terms like grooving, funking, jazz improv, whatever are usually used by musicians who dont (not cant) dont use sheet music and let EXPERIENCE guide their hands. That experience is ultimately theory. If and when musicians let their experience/ears/feel/the groove guide them, they are falling back on what they know will work, ie knowledge acquired, which ultimately is exactly what theory is. Theres no right or wrong here peeps.........


No matter what way its buttered its gonna fall on the same side. (My vague comment for the day )

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1017466' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:20 PM'][/quote]
That was a broad statement not aimed at you particularly. Except to say you, possibly joking, advise EVEYONE to learn to read. But I have a big problem with this approach because it is not always appropriate and the tutors can cause severe problems in the pupil, perhaps putting them off learning music, or giving them false expectations, like thes ebloody music colleges like BassTech. Full of kids who want to be VERSATILE and become a WELL PAID session musician to the stars. Most of them will end up serving flat whites to poorly dressed clerks.

I had dreams of playing massive stadia to adoring fans when I was a kid. But I didn't get fleeced by a music college and get those dreams milked for all they're worth by a buch of vultures and still come out with mediocre (but versatile!) skills. That's why most of the teachers there are not really making much cash from sessions and gigs, and have to teach to supplement their income, and most of the students are young and impressionable.

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017473' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:24 PM']Then you are being yourself, and that is wonderful, and to be celebrated. However, are you perhaps neglecting certain areas of your playing in your quest to be versatile?[/quote]
Such as?

[quote name='silddx' post='1017473' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:24 PM']I have to assume here that [b]what you mean by versatility[/b], is that you aim to both understand the role of the [b]bass [/b]and play it to a good standard whether improvising or reading off sheet, and be able to play to a high standard various styles of western music, on the bass.

AM I right in that thinking? Or do you mean by [b]versatile[/b] that you are learning to play all the instruments of the orchestra and understand their roles theoretically and be able to improvise and read off sheet for those instruments? Then you will no doubt progress onto the North and South Indian, Arabic, Chinese, Gamelan and other classical and folk styles.[/quote]

The bass-both electric and upright- are my chosen instruments and I constantly aim to play it at a higher standard than 'good'. However,as a [b]musician[/b],
I do understand the roles of the instruments in the orchestra. And although I haven't studied 'non-western' styles in any particular depth,I do have both books
and recordings of them.
What I'm getting at,is I would rather aim to be a musician who plays bass than solely a bass player. That's not a derogatory thing at all-I have a
total obsession with the bass,but I also want to look at music from other perspectives rather than just my chosen instruments particular role.


[quote name='silddx' post='1017473' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:24 PM']What I am saying is that even incredibly schooled and technically adept musician is only versatile within the limits they have set themselves. In the grand scheme of music, one has to be a bit more philosophical about how to apply one's intellect and resources to the musical situations one wishes to encounter.[/quote]

That's all about perspective.I would rather not set any limits for myself,why would I want to? I obviously have areas of music that I favour,but I
don't want to rule out anything.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mog' post='1017507' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:39 PM']I cant agree with you on that point bud. Tab yes but sheet music no. A proper score will give you everything you need except instructions re eq/tone.

I think someone touched on the point earlier about your ears knowing what to do next. IMO, (and its just an opinion) terms like grooving, funking, jazz improv, whatever are usually used by musicians who dont (not cant) dont use sheet music and let EXPERIENCE guide their hands. That experience is ultimately theory. If and when musicians let their experience/ears/feel/the groove guide them, they are falling back on what they know will work, ie knowledge acquired, which ultimately is exactly what theory is. Theres no right or wrong here peeps.........


No matter what way its buttered its gonna fall on the same side. (My vague comment for the day )[/quote]
Nope, NOTHING on paper can help anyone play reggae. NOTHING. Simple in essence, impossible to convey without actually hearing it. You cannot intellectualise it at all.

Whereas, although huge levels of feel are required, it is possible to do that with latin music, which can be very complicated and relies upon its proponents having the clave in their head. I believe this is why western jazz musicians are often drawn to its mysteries, like a challenging puzzle, because it appears to them to be worthy, unlike something like reggae, which every white man except Paul Simonon will find almost impossible to execute with style and feel.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017525' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:53 PM'][b]That's all about perspective.I would rather not set any limits for myself,why would I want to? I obviously have areas of music that I favour,but I don't want to rule out anything.[/b][/quote]

But [i]"The bass-both electric and upright- are my chosen instruments and I constantly aim to play it at a higher standard than 'good'. However,as a musician,
I do understand the roles of the instruments in the orchestra. And although I haven't studied 'non-western' styles in any particular depth,I do have both books
and recordings of them.
What I'm getting at,is I would rather aim to be a musician who plays bass than solely a bass player. That's not a derogatory thing at all-I have a total obsession with the bass,but I also want to look at music from other perspectives rather than just my chosen instruments particular role."[/i] are the current limits you have set yourself. I don't imagine you will be booking sarod or mbira lessons anytime soon.

My limits are different, but no less worthy than your own.

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017538' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:59 PM']My limits are different, but no less worthy than your own.[/quote]

I never said your limits were less worthy than mine.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017546' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:04 PM']I never said your limits were less worthy than mine.[/quote]
So you admit you have limits then?

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017550' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:07 PM']So you admit you have limits then?[/quote]

No,I was just going off your comment.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017553' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:09 PM']No,I was just going off your comment.[/quote]
Oh ok. I'm not having a go mate. I'm just trying to establish what it is you are trying to achieve. Not so long ago, you seemed to be as rigid as Bilbo in your insistance that we should all learn to read, and those who didn't want to or who didn't feel the need were deluding themselves or had lesser aims in life. Should you wish to dispute that, you'll win because I can't be bothered, nor care enough, to trawl through all this sh*t to prove it. Someone else might though so be careful

Cheers.

[Mog]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017531' date='Nov 9 2010, 01:56 PM']Nope, NOTHING on paper can help anyone play reggae. NOTHING. Simple in essence, impossible to convey without actually hearing it. You cannot intellectualise it at all.

Whereas, although huge levels of feel are required, it is possible to do that with latin music, which can be very complicated and relies upon its proponents having the clave in their head. I believe this is why western jazz musicians are often drawn to its mysteries, like a challenging puzzle, because it appears to them to be worthy, unlike something like reggae, which every white man except Paul Simonon will find almost impossible to execute with style and feel.[/quote]

What else do you need outside of time sig, the notes, timbre. Its all there on a score.
Is that Mark King guy that everyone raves about not noted for his reggae playing?

I get what you are saying about latin music, its what i started playing all those years ago. I only really got a basic understanding of flamenco a few years later when I was lucky enough to see a guitarist and 3 dancers in spain. Those few minutes were better than any lesson. I think in this context what you see as feel I see as dynamics, a technique widely used in flamenco. Same thing, different name. Both acquired just through different means and labeled differently.

End of the day, I've just a different opinion on it. Like I said, theres no right and wrong.

[paul h]

My argument is moving too slowly. Can I jump in here as well?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mog' post='1017574' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:22 PM'][b]What else do you need outside of time sig, the notes, timbre. Its all there on a score. [/b][/quote]


EDIT: You're not actually serious are you?

Edited November 9, 2010 by silddx

[algmusic]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017583' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:25 PM']

EDIT: You're not actually serious are you?[/quote]


I agree ten fold..

I don't read alot these days but the amount of times, I get called in on to play music and the score is struggling to say what it needs to, but it can't.. The score is a guide and framework, you have to add the passion and flavour and interpret it yourself to make the music as the writer intended.. AKA groove!!

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017572' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:21 PM']Oh ok. I'm not having a go mate. I'm just trying to establish what it is you are trying to achieve. Not so long ago, you seemed to be as rigid as Bilbo in your insistance that we should all learn to read, and those who didn't want to or who didn't feel the need were deluding themselves or had lesser aims in life. Should you wish to dispute that, you'll win because I can't be bothered, nor care enough, to trawl through all this sh*t to prove it. Someone else might though so be careful

Cheers.[/quote]

I don't recall ever saying those who don't want to learn were deluding themselves or had lesser aims in life.The only time I feel that people are
vaguely deluding themselves is when they say that knowing theory/reading can be a hinderence. I do honestly believe that players,
especially beginners,should learn how to read because even if you never use it with your band it is still a valuable skill to have and will open
up a whole world of information that is unavailable to you otherwise,and I don't understand why someone would not want this.

[algmusic]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017595' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:33 PM']I don't recall ever saying those who don't want to learn were deluding themselves or had lesser aims in life.The only time I feel that people are
vaguely deluding themselves is when they say that knowing theory/reading can be a hinderence. I do honestly believe that players,
especially beginners,should learn how to read because even if you never use it with your band it is still a valuable skill to have and will open
up a whole world of information that is unavailable to you otherwise,and I don't understand why someone would not want this.[/quote]

Theory is important, but I'm not sure to key for a successful musician to read... I'm juts putting it out there.

I'd personally teach a student to read to help them learn, but I wouldn't make it the centre of their learning.. their Ears are the centre of their learning.. once they have nailed that.. everything slots into place.. nothing worse than a player than can read, but can't understand if the music they're playing doesn't sound right because there was a mistake in the score... You might as well use logic and sack the musician ;-)

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017595' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:33 PM']I don't recall ever saying those who don't want to learn were deluding themselves or had lesser aims in life.[/quote]
I don't think [i]any[/i] of the basschat advocates of the learned path has ever said that Doddy, that it is a charge frequently held up by the non schooled basschatters (at least those who make these points) suggests that there is a feeling of that amongst them.
It's a shame because we all can appreciate good bass playing however it is created, but for some reason our viewpoint is challenged time and time again as being somehow soulless. Read through again to find many examples of criticism of reading musicians but broad acceptance by the readers that there are plenty of good players amongst the non readers.
If there were a study into the fairness and objectivity of the charges on these pages then I'm pretty sure that the weight of evidence would suggest that the reading lobby is much more accepting of all comers.

Edited November 9, 2010 by jakesbass

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1017595' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:33 PM']I don't recall ever saying those who don't want to learn were deluding themselves or had lesser aims in life.The only time I feel that people are
vaguely deluding themselves is when they say that knowing theory/reading can be a hinderence. I do honestly believe that players,
especially beginners,should learn how to read because even if you never use it with your band it is still a valuable skill to have and will open
up a whole world of information that is unavailable to you otherwise,and I don't understand why someone would not want this.[/quote]
I do truthfully understand where you are coming from, but there is a big difference in "knowing" and [b]being taught[/b]. There are plenty of great tutors out there who can make learning music notation and theory seem pleasurable and easier than it could be, because they understand the student. However, there are many who make it overcomplicated and daunting, and that can severely hinder the student's progress and possibilities. Other than that though, I agree with you, KNOWING can never be a hinderance, but a caveat is that you can never KNOW it all, there is an assumption that KNOWING means it can be applied.

[Mog]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017583' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:25 PM']

EDIT: You're not actually serious are you?[/quote]


[quote name='algmusic' post='1017594' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:32 PM']I agree ten fold..

I don't read alot these days but the amount of times, I get called in on to play music and the score is struggling to say what it needs to, but it can't.. The score is a guide and framework, [b]you have to add the passion and flavour and [i]interpret it yourself to make the music as the writer intended[/i].. AKA groove!![/b][/quote]

Yes deadly serious. You do have an understanding of what all those odd shapes mean dont you? With no complaints yet from any paying job I'd say my personal approach is fine.

Not trying to sound snobbish but thats tripe. If you source a bad score thats your issue not mine. You're also assuming that by reading from a score the perfornance will be dull/lifeless. Interpret it yourself and keep it how the original composer intended? Really? Groove is becoming my least favourite word. [u]You really need to know when to groove and when not to.[/u] Its getting to the point where its becoming an excuse for people IMO.

Again just opinions, make of them what you will.

[Doddy]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1017609' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:39 PM']Theory is important, but I'm not sure to key for a successful musician to read... I'm juts putting it out there.

I'd personally teach a student to read to help them learn, but I wouldn't make it the centre of their learning.. their Ears are the centre of their learning.. once they have nailed that.. everything slots into place.. nothing worse than a player than can read, but can't understand if the music they're playing doesn't sound right because there was a mistake in the score... You might as well use logic and sack the musician ;-)[/quote]

Which is why,in this and other treads I have recommended both reading and ear training,both are as important,to me,as each other.


[quote name='silddx' post='1017618' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:42 PM']I do truthfully understand where you are coming from, but there is a big difference in "knowing" and [b]being taught[/b]. There are plenty of great tutors out there who can make learning music notation and theory seem pleasurable and easier than it could be, because they understand the student. However, there are many who make it overcomplicated and daunting, and that can severely hinder the student's progress and possibilities. Other than that though, I agree with you, KNOWING can never be a hinderance, but a caveat is that you can never KNOW it all, there is an assumption that KNOWING means it can be applied.[/quote]

So really it's down to poor teachers-of which there are many-who make more difficult than it is. I can see why this would put you off,and it's a great shame.
I agree that you can never know it all,but that's part of the fun. I like constantly learning and pushing ny knowledge further.

Incidentally,I'm also really open to discussing things,and if anyone wants to talk to me via PM,email,phone,whatever,feel free to get in touch.

Paul

[Earbrass]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017611' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:41 PM']I don't think [i]any[/i] of the basschat advocates of the learned path has ever said that Doddy, that it is a charge frequently held up by the non schooled basschatters (at least those who make these points) suggests that there is a feeling of that amongst them.
It's a shame because we all can appreciate good bass playing however it is created, but for some reason our viewpoint is challenged time and time again as being somehow soulless. Read through again to find many examples of criticism of reading musicians but broad acceptance by the readers that there are plenty of good players amongst the non readers.
If there were a study into the fairness and objectivity of the charges on these pages then I'm pretty sure that the weight of evidence would suggest that the reading lobby is much more accepting of all comers.[/quote]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say, but Jake makes it sound more reasonable and less like the ravings of a madman than I was able to manage.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Earbrass

[Mog]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017611' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:41 PM']I don't think [i]any[/i] of the basschat advocates of the learned path has ever said that Doddy, that it is a charge frequently held up by the non schooled basschatters (at least those who make these points) suggests that there is a feeling of that amongst them.
It's a shame because we all can appreciate good bass playing however it is created, but for some reason our viewpoint is challenged time and time again as being somehow soulless. Read through again to find many examples of criticism of reading musicians but broad acceptance by the readers that there are plenty of good players amongst the non readers.
If there were a study into the fairness and objectivity of the charges on these pages then I'm pretty sure that the weight of evidence would suggest that the reading lobby is much more accepting of all comers.[/quote]

I kinda get what you're saying. Its kinda like the way the ladies, despite the sympathies, will never truely understand what a kick in the nuts really feels like.....................................

[paul h]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017611' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:41 PM']If there were a study into the fairness and objectivity of the charges on these pages then I'm pretty sure that the weight of evidence would suggest that the reading lobby is much more accepting of all comers.[/quote]



I really don't like to be controversial and I am not really trying to be so I hope that this is going to be taken in the light hearted manner it is intended...

I haven't read any of this thread but in others...

I have been called dishonest for liking relic jobs, by a reader. I have read posts where a reader states categorically, and completely seriously, that jazz fans are more intelligent that everyone else. A reader has also said (and I paraphrase) that playing cover versions, something a lot of us do, is infantile and beneath him.

The point is that we are all as bad as each other when we are defending our viewpoints.

But readers are worse.

[algmusic]

[quote name='Mog' post='1017629' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:52 PM']Yes deadly serious. You do have an understanding of what all those odd shapes mean dont you? With no complaints yet from any paying job I'd say my personal approach is fine.

Not trying to sound snobbish but thats tripe. If you source a bad score thats your issue not mine. You're also assuming that by reading from a score the perfornance will be dull/lifeless. Interpret it yourself and keep it how the original composer intended? Really? Groove is becoming my least favourite word. [u]You really need to know when to groove and when not to.[/u] Its getting to the point where its becoming an excuse for people IMO.

Again just opinions, make of them what you will.[/quote]

I think you have missed what I'm saying.. 1st of all the scores I'm talking about are the ones you might get given on the the day and you do the gig. I'd be surprised if you'd never come across any scores you were given that don't have mistakes.. try doing a theatre show :-)

Also I'm not implying reading from a score is life less and dull, I did not say that at all mate. I actually have no bad feelings to reading music or readers, I am one. I feel in my humble opinion you have to read the feeling between the notes. Use your ears, listen to the rest of your fellow musicians in the piece of music and none of that is on the score. I have many classical musician friends that show me this on regular basis and they are definitely 'readers'. You can play the same notes but one way brings the music alive and the other is like a machine played it.

I do think maybe the term groove seems to imply that it has to feel funky of some sort.. In my mind this term means making the music feel good not f***y just right for the music, regardless of genre.

[algmusic]

[quote name='paul h' post='1017642' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:04 PM']

I really don't like to be controversial and I am not really trying to be so I hope that this is going to be taken in the light hearted manner it is intended...

I haven't read any of this thread but in others...

I have been called dishonest for liking relic jobs, by a reader. I have read posts where a reader states categorically, and completely seriously, that jazz fans are more intelligent that everyone else. A reader has also said (and I paraphrase) that playing cover versions, something a lot of us do, is infantile and beneath him.

The point is that we are all as bad as each other when we are defending our viewpoints.

But readers are worse.

[/quote]


I have a relic and I always get compliments on the sound from studios and sound guys that love the actual vintage basses, mine has got used of over the real thing before.. you have to judge a bass by it's sound..

Jazz fans are more intelligent?.. I think jazz is great, but that guy sounds like T*at


I hope at the end of this everyone goes away thinking about other people views.. I know I will.. Thats' the whole point of the thread really..

Lets' be honest, it would be a boring site if we all thought the same way :-)

[fingerz]

What a subject! "Theory versus Groove" as a title, suggests the two concepts work against each other which is very dangerous IMO.

I usually draw parallels between speaking and playing - both ways of communicating. Do you need to know how to read and write to speak? No. Do you need to read and write notation to play? No. However, if as a student, you can't play something right and don't understand why it is wrong, then theory will come in very useful. Knowing that there are four beats in the bar (in most of the music we hear and play at least!), crotchets and quavers etc and how they fill those four beats can go a great way to explaining and understanding why a student is out of time. Same with the notes we play. etc etc.

If I was playing a groove and wanted to play a fill, if I know what key i'm in, and what notes are available then I am free to come up with my own sound than purely copy something I may have heard.

There are many great musicians who don't know any theory in the formal sense, but through hard work and endless playing have a great oral understanding of the instrument and music as a whole.

IME curiosity has lead me to enquire more and more about theory as I play and hear more music. I have a friend who studies indian classical music, when I'm like 'what did you just play?!' we are able to have a conversation that leaves me informed, scared and confused! But amazed at how little I know and how it's almost second nature to him because he's put the time in to understand it. What I mean is, most theory will dissolve into musicality if treated the right way anyway. So this hole discussion seems somewhat academic and slightly negative. Theory won't make you any worse. And if you play with theory in mind, not feel, then it will often sound crap anyway (well, not my cup of tea anyway) - it needs to be part of your language, that's the point. If you have options when you play, but don't feel the need to use them all, then you will be playing what you play for the right reasons IMO.