Markbass F1 voltage conversion query

[MarkBassChat]

In Wikipedia UK is listed as 230V country: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_power_around_the_world"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_power_around_the_world[/url] - (formerly 240 V). That's why I wasn't sure. So possibly I don't have to edit my previous post.
[quote name='icastle' post='1018269' date='Nov 10 2010, 02:42 AM']That's [b]exactly[/b] the point I was trying to make earlier.
UK mains can be anything between 216V and 253V (230V +10%/-6%).[/quote]Yes, I know this may be a problem. But there is a delicate issue here: if your amp is set correctly and it fails due to incorrect mains voltage, you can get money from the power provider. But if the amp is set incorrectly and it fails, this is your problem (and additionally the guarantee is voided so in case of any other failure it will not be fixed for free). So setting the amp incorrectly may cause that you loose some money.

[quote name='icastle' post='1018269' date='Nov 10 2010, 02:42 AM']If you follow the "out of warranty" rules you'd have to:
1) take a multimeter and measure the mains voltage at every venue
2) arrange for an authorised man in to change the jumpers before you plugged the amp in
...and the chances of any sane human being doing that are..?
It is crazy to believe that a reputable and respected manufacturer like MarkBass, who have sold 1000s of these units, would ever contemplate issuing a piece of equipment that was going to fall apart because of a mere 5% fluctuation in mains voltage (5% being the difference between 230V and 240V).[/quote]I think that Markbass amps are not sensitive to 5% fluctuation of mains voltage. The requirement from Markbass is that the amp is set up as required in a given country and not in a given venue . And actually Lawrence should measure the voltage (e.g. at home) and decide which option should be selected.

[quote name='icastle' post='1018269' date='Nov 10 2010, 02:42 AM']So, looking at this sensibly...
if you were to select the 230V option and hit a 253V supply - you are 23V over the limit.
if you select the 240V option and hit a 253V supply - you are 13V over the limit.
I know which one sounds safest to me... [/quote]I agree. If you can get voltage between 210 and 250V it is safer to set the amp to 240V. But by doing this you void the guarantee. Are you sure that you may get 250V in UK? This could cause a failure of other equipment at home (light bulbs) and it is hard to imagine that some mains power provider is doing something like this. It's rather the other way round: they agree to deliver 230V but in reality they deliver 215V.

Mark

[bumnote]

Im just a layman but what happens to all the other electrical equipment in the UK that was manufactured prior to 2008 when the change was made. Presumably that was designed for 240v and is now running on 230. Is that at risk of damage, or is the markbass particulalry sensitive?

[icastle]

[quote name='MarkBassChat' post='1018332' date='Nov 10 2010, 07:17 AM']I agree. If you can get voltage between 210 and 250V it is safer to set the amp to 240V. But by doing this you void the guarantee. Are you sure that you may get 250V in UK? This could cause a failure of other equipment at home (light bulbs) and it is hard to imagine that some mains power provider is doing something like this. It's rather the other way round: they agree to deliver 230V but in reality they deliver 215V.

Mark[/quote]

Dood measured 258V last night and I have 247V here this morning.

That is the very nature of AC and the reason why data centres spend a small fortune on conditioning their mains supplies (which are three phase and 240V not single phase 230V).

If any company decided to impose what you seem to be suggesting here they would soon end up with a reputation that would deter customers.
Lets hope that this is not the case eh?

[icastle]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1018384' date='Nov 10 2010, 09:13 AM']Im just a layman but what happens to all the other electrical equipment in the UK that was manufactured prior to 2008 when the change was made. Presumably that was designed for 240v and is now running on 230. Is that at risk of damage, or is the markbass particulalry sensitive?[/quote]

I can spot loads of stuff in our house that was purchased pre 2008, still working fine.
It carries on working because it just doesn't matter to it

Can you imagine the outcry if they changed the voltage and everyone's appliances started dying as a result?

[MarkBassChat]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1018384' date='Nov 10 2010, 12:13 PM']Im just a layman but what happens to all the other electrical equipment in the UK that was manufactured prior to 2008 when the change was made. Presumably that was designed for 240v and is now running on 230. Is that at risk of damage, or is the markbass particulalry sensitive?[/quote]
The change was from 240V to 230V. So it is less than 5% and the voltage was lowered. It means that the change is not critical at all. And I don't think that there is any risk of damage either with Markbass amps or any other equipment. Equipment from (resonable) manufacturers has to work correctly within the tolerance guaranteed by mains power supplier (you can check the tolerance on Wikipedia). And most probably slightly more. So I would say that the tolerance of +/-20% should be acceptable for most equipment.
The problem is when a country changes mains power voltage up. If you e.g. imagine the US changing form 117V to 230V. Do you think that such operation would be possible? Most of the equipment would fail and this would be a disaster. Such a situation will never happen but there were many countries where the mains power voltage was changed from 220V to 230V. They could have some problems with e.g. light bulbs but this was nothing critical.
What is interesting with Markbass F1 is that the change means slightly lower voltage for the power amp. And lower voltage means less power. Of course you will not hear the difference but I wonder what Markbass would recommend.
And I'm not refering to places where you have still 268V. There, most probably the conversion hasn't been done and if some equipment fails, you can most probably ask the power supplier for a compensation :-).

Mark

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='MarkBassChat' post='1018457' date='Nov 10 2010, 10:10 AM']What is interesting with Markbass F1 is that the change means slightly lower voltage for the power amp. And lower voltage means less power. Of course you will not hear the difference but I wonder what Markbass would recommend.
And I'm not refering to places where you have still 268V. There, most probably the conversion hasn't been done and if some equipment fails, you can most probably ask the power supplier for a compensation :-).[/quote]

Well, given that apparently most suppliers haven't actually changed the supply voltage since 240 falls within the tolerance bands, I think I'll go for the 240 setting and see where it takes me. When I have 500 of the damn things at my disposal, I think I can spare the odd watt
Thanks for all the help guys, this has been a really useful (for me) thread!

[icastle]

[quote name='MarkBassChat' post='1018457' date='Nov 10 2010, 10:10 AM']The change was from 240V to 230V. So it is less than 5% and the voltage was lowered. It means that the change is not critical at all. And I don't think that there is any risk of damage either with Markbass amps or any other equipment. Equipment from (resonable) manufacturers has to work correctly within the tolerance guaranteed by mains power supplier (you can check the tolerance on Wikipedia). And most probably slightly more. So I would say that the tolerance of +/-20% should be acceptable for most equipment.
The problem is when a country changes mains power voltage up. If you e.g. imagine the US changing form 117V to 230V. Do you think that such operation would be possible? Most of the equipment would fail and this would be a disaster. Such a situation will never happen but there were many countries where the mains power voltage was changed from 220V to 230V. They could have some problems with e.g. light bulbs but this was nothing critical.
What is interesting with Markbass F1 is that the change means slightly lower voltage for the power amp. And lower voltage means less power. Of course you will not hear the difference but I wonder what Markbass would recommend.
And I'm not refering to places where you have still 268V. There, most probably the conversion hasn't been done and if some equipment fails, you can most probably ask the power supplier for a compensation :-).

Mark[/quote]

Oh good grief
I'm gonna bail out of this conversation while I'm still able to be polite

[bumnote]

[quote name='MarkBassChat' post='1018457' date='Nov 10 2010, 10:10 AM']The change was from 240V to 230V. So it is less than 5% and the voltage was lowered. It means that the change is not critical at all. And I don't think that there is any risk of damage either with Markbass amps or any other equipment. Equipment from (resonable) manufacturers has to work correctly within the tolerance guaranteed by mains power supplier (you can check the tolerance on Wikipedia). And most probably slightly more. So I would say that the tolerance of +/-20% should be acceptable for most equipment.
The problem is when a country changes mains power voltage up. If you e.g. imagine the US changing form 117V to 230V. Do you think that such operation would be possible? Most of the equipment would fail and this would be a disaster. Such a situation will never happen but there were many countries where the mains power voltage was changed from 220V to 230V. They could have some problems with e.g. light bulbs but this was nothing critical.
What is interesting with Markbass F1 is that the change means slightly lower voltage for the power amp. And lower voltage means less power. Of course you will not hear the difference but I wonder what Markbass would recommend.
And I'm not refering to places where you have still 268V. There, most probably the conversion hasn't been done and if some equipment fails, you can most probably ask the power supplier for a compensation :-).

Mark[/quote]


Perhaps I should be more blunt.

If my Ashdown, Eden, and all my old Acoustic stuff was made prior to 98, designed and manufactured for 240 are running at 230 without problems, why is it an issue with Markbass?

[Dood]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1018592' date='Nov 10 2010, 11:35 AM']Perhaps I should be more blunt.

If my Ashdown, Eden, and all my old Acoustic stuff was made prior to 98, designed and manufactured for 240 are running at 230 without problems, why is it an issue with Markbass?[/quote]

I don't think there is an issue. Certainly not with banging 268V in to mine here in Naaaaarfolk.

[quote name='markbasschat'][b]The change was from 240V to 230V. So it is less than 5% and the voltage was lowered. It means that the change is not critical at all. And I don't think that there is any risk of damage either with Markbass amps or any other equipment. [/b] Equipment from (resonable) manufacturers has to work correctly within the tolerance guaranteed by mains power supplier (you can check the tolerance on Wikipedia). And most probably slightly more. So I would say that the tolerance of +/-20% should be acceptable for most equipment.
......[/quote]

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dood' post='1018640' date='Nov 10 2010, 12:09 PM']I don't think there is an issue. Certainly not with banging 268V in to mine here in Naaaaarfolk. [/quote]

Norfolk volts are a completely different kettle of fish

[MarkBassChat]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1018592' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:35 PM']If my Ashdown, Eden, and all my old Acoustic stuff was made prior to 98, designed and manufactured for 240 are running at 230 without problems, why is it an issue with Markbass?[/quote]Actually, I said exactly the oposite: [b]there is no issue with Markbass if the change is from 240V to 230V[/b]. Possible problems are only when the change is "up" and the change is substantial. For example, if you have an amp set to 120V (American version) and want to use it in Europe (230V). Then you will see this "magical smoke" mentioned in some Eden manuals (if the main fuse is not fast enough).
Smaller voltage differences are handled correctly (even 268V as Dood mentioned).

Mark

Edited November 10, 2010 by MarkBassChat

[bumnote]

[quote name='MarkBassChat' post='1018657' date='Nov 10 2010, 12:21 PM']Actually, I said exactly the oposite: [b]there is no issue with Markbass if the change is from 240V to 230V[/b]. Possible problems are only when the change is "up" and the change is substantial. For example, if you have an amp set to 120V (American version) and want to use it in Europe (230V). Then you will see this "magical smoke" mentioned in some Eden manuals (if the main fuse is not fast enough).
Smaller voltage differences are handled correctly (even 268V as Dood mentioned).

Mark[/quote]


Also the jumpers are slightly different than on the photo on the other forum. Markbass amps can be set to four different voltages: 100/120/230/240 and in each case it should be done differently. For 230V the "120-240V" jumper should be dissconnected (as on the photo). But there is another, little jumper for 230/240V selection (also visible on the photo). And on the photo it is set incorrectly. For 230V it should be in the middle position (it is marked J8). [size=4]So the amp is sensitive to 230 or 240V power supply (contrary to what was said above).[/size]
I'm new here and I don't know if I can post photos on this forum. Let's see.
HTH,
Mark

[icastle]

[quote name='dood' post='1018640' date='Nov 10 2010, 12:09 PM']I don't think there is an issue. Certainly not with banging 268V in to mine here in Naaaaarfolk. [/quote]

268V in Norfolk - that'd be because your volts are all running on flat land and not getting tired going uphill like they do here...

[MarkBassChat]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1018777' date='Nov 10 2010, 03:52 PM'][size=4]So the amp is sensitive to 230 or 240V power supply (contrary to what was said above).[/size][/quote]I wrote that it is sensitive but I did not write that this is an issue, nor that this is a critical issue. In either case the amp will work correctly but the manufacturer provided a possibility to have a separate configuration for 230V and 240V. If this is available, why not use it?
Apart from this, English is not my native language and you have to forgive me if I said something what is not precise enough.

Mark

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1018777' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:52 PM']size=4]So the amp is sensitive to 230 or 240V power supply (contrary to what was said above).[/size][/quote]

Bit confused with all the quotes within quotes. But for me the issue is clear enough now. The amp is designed to operate within a tolerance range of voltages, it's very likely that most of the time it will be fine at 230 or 240 whatever the jumper settings. However, if the supply voltage fluctuates outside these tolerance bands then it increases the chances of damage. Adjusting where the centre of the band lies to 230 or 240 depending on the nominal supply voltage of a particular region makes sense, as you're operating further within the safe limits and the supply voltage can slip further from nominal BEFORE this becomes an issue. So for me, markbasschat's comments (suitably amended regarding the voltage in uk) are valid and useful, as have others' been.

From what I can gather, 268V is way outside the old uk spec of +/-6% or new spec of 230 +10/-6%. I wonder how many odd computer failures could be attributed to poorly conditioned mains. But anyway, surely if Markbass were particularly susceptible to mains voltage changes then I'm sure we'd have heard about more problems by now. I seem to remember their failure rate is overall pretty low - part of what attracted me! But it seems unsurprising that a tiny class D amp like the F1 might be less robust than a whopping great transformer-weighted behemoth. And I've had a few of them fail anyway, for different reasons, so it's all swings and roundabouts!

As I said based on the voltage readings people seem to be finding I'm going for 240V setting since probably that's what most uk suppliers are doing in practice. This article from soundonsound specifically talking about problems with mains voltage has been very interesting and informative:
[url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul03/articles/mainsproblems.asp"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul03/arti...insproblems.asp[/url]
I suspect most of what it says is still valid, and dood if your supply is regularly above that level then they're legally obliged to do something about it. Thanks again, I've learnt tons from starting this thread! Now if only that somehow translated to playing better bass I'd be as happy as Larry. Oh wait, that's me. Woo!

[Dood]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1018655' date='Nov 10 2010, 12:19 PM']Norfolk volts are a completely different kettle of fish [/quote]


[quote name='icastle' post='1018811' date='Nov 10 2010, 02:12 PM']268V in Norfolk - that'd be because your volts are all running on flat land and not getting tired going uphill like they do here... [/quote]


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! Yes guys, correct on both accounts. It's also due to the build up of additional pressure that electricity has trying to get in and out of the county. The mains supply equivalent of the A11... BIG ROLL OF THE EYES!

[icastle]

[quote name='dood' post='1019202' date='Nov 10 2010, 07:14 PM']It's also due to the build up of additional pressure that electricity has trying to get in and out of the county.[/quote]

A bid for freedom?

[Bottle]

[quote name='icastle' post='1019491' date='Nov 10 2010, 11:08 PM']A bid for freedom? [/quote]
It's them free electrons, innit? Next Protons and Neutrons will be striking in sympathy, and demanding reparations

Anyway, IIRC the Electricty Supply, Quality and Continuity Regs 2002 state that the harmonised supply voltage in the EU should be 230VAC, single phase, with a tolerance of -10%/+6% (which, I believe has been mentioned elsewhere) - long and short of it is that in the UK, electricity suppliers really haven't had to do anything different (and neither have our continental cousins). All it means is that our [i]nominal[/i] supply is 230VAC, but in reality, is still 240V (and by the same token, Europe is still 220V). The regs are there to bring us in line with Europe, so that equipment manufactured overseas can be built to a single standard. Simples .

In relation to the OP's specific query, I would suggest setting the jumper to 240VAC, if he intends to [i]only[/i] use it in the UK, otherwise 230VAC.

HTH, Ian

[icastle]

[quote name='Bottle' post='1024832' date='Nov 15 2010, 04:38 PM']Anyway, IIRC the Electricty Supply, Quality and Continuity Regs 2002 state that the harmonised supply voltage in the EU should be 230VAC[/quote]

I knew it..!
I bl**dy knew it..!


...Norfolk is NOT part of Europe...

[Bottle]

[quote name='icastle' post='1024850' date='Nov 15 2010, 04:50 PM']I knew it..!
I bl**dy knew it..!


...Norfolk is NOT part of Europe... [/quote]
Hehehehe

[Dood]

[quote name='icastle' post='1024850' date='Nov 15 2010, 04:50 PM']I knew it..!
I bl**dy knew it..!


...Norfolk is NOT part of Europe... [/quote]


Well the language used here is not one that I can recognise ha ha ha!! Love you really Norwich..

[Dood]

Quick update, I've done a conversion on a US F1. It has been running for a good hour whilst I spank the **** out of it and it sounds fine! Fuse in the US model was a T6.3Al and I have swapped it to match my UK F1 @ T3.15Al.

[Bottle]

[quote name='dood' post='1033930' date='Nov 23 2010, 02:32 PM']Quick update, I've done a conversion on a US F1. It has been running for a good hour whilst I spank the **** out of it and it sounds fine! Fuse in the US model was a T6.3Al and I have swapped it to match my UK F1 @ T3.15Al.[/quote]
Fantastic!!

Just watch out for them Fenland electrons - Norfolk and good

Ian

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='dood' post='1033930' date='Nov 23 2010, 02:32 PM']Quick update, I've done a conversion on a US F1. It has been running for a good hour whilst I spank the **** out of it and it sounds fine! Fuse in the US model was a T6.3Al and I have swapped it to match my UK F1 @ T3.15Al.[/quote]

Me too - works a treat! Why on earth do you need two F1s though, what kind of monster rig are you running?!

[Dood]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1034117' date='Nov 23 2010, 05:20 PM']Me too - works a treat! Why on earth do you need two F1s though, what kind of monster rig are you running?![/quote]

Big grin... Well, my main rig is a pair of Hartke Hydrives and the LH1000 - I really wanna get my hands on the new Kilo, which is (or on paper at least) a true stereo head. In the meantime, Hartke don't make a lil F1 sized head - so, just for shits and giggles I have put together a superlightweightanddisgustinglypowerful HiFi Stereo rig! I run (as far as possible) all my effects to the top end so the bottom end gets left alone. I've also found that the added 'muscle' helps reproduce those low notes of my 7 stringer.

It's not all showy and 'eeeee look what I've got' or anything, not that kinda guy at all - I just really love listening to yummy stereo effects!


So all of that aside, there is something slightly perverse about having all that power in something that weighs well - the whole rack cant weigh anymore than about 6 kilos! I'd have to stick it on some scales - but that's about 1000W! Golly!