dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 I noticed last night i was getting the above when i was putting my bass back together and couldnt figure out why it was happening. This was with a new pot and clean wires (and even a new iron). I was using Maplins lead free solder and a 30watt iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Sometimes if you move/shake just as the solder sets it will set without it's usual shine. A quick reheat and a wee feed of flux (fresh solder) will sort it. I don't know if that's what's happening to you too. Was it particularly cold where you were soldering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1018493' date='Nov 10 2010, 10:32 AM']Sometimes if you move/shake just as the solder sets it will set without it's usual shine. A quick reheat and a wee feed of flux (fresh solder) will sort it. I don't know if that's what's happening to you too. Was it particularly cold where you were soldering?[/quote] That'll do it. So will blowing on the molten solder in an attempt to cool it down quicker. Over heating the joint will also do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) Cheers guys. I was doing it in my kitchen so no, it wasn't cold. Im pretty sure i was blowing on it so maybe that was it. Im not sure there was any movement as the wires were clamped or twisted around the eyelets. While i have your attention, any tips on soldering the ground wires to the back of the pot? Ive done it but it looks a bit messy. Cheers again. Edited November 10, 2010 by dave_bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018529' date='Nov 10 2010, 10:52 AM']Cheers guys. I was doing it in my kitchen so no, it wasn't cold. Im pretty sure i was blowing on it so maybe that was it. Im not sure there was any movement as the wires were clamped or twisted around the eyelets. While i have your attention, any tips on soldering the ground wires to the back of the pot? Ive done it but it looks a bit messy. Cheers again.[/quote] Don't blow Soldering onto the back of a pot can be difficult. Best way:- 1) sandpaper a small area that you are going to solder onto - this allows the solder to run smoothly and stops "blobs" appearing. 2) prepare the wire you are wanting to solder onto the pot - get it stripped and make sure you tin it. 3) with enough solder on the end of the iron to make it wet, heat up the back of the pot and every couple of seconds try pushing some solder to the area you are heating to see if it melts. 4) as soon as it melts, add enough solder to cover the area you have pre sanded - you are after a smooth layer of solder, not a half round shape. 5) keeping your iron in the solder flow, quickly push the prepared wire into the mass. 6) stay very very still for at least a minute 7) sorted Edited November 10, 2010 by icastle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018529' date='Nov 10 2010, 10:52 AM']While i have your attention, any tips on soldering the ground wires to the back of the pot? Ive done it but it looks a bit messy. Cheers again.[/quote] Yup, most pots have a shiny finish on the back that is a nightmare to solder to. I use an emery board (or fine sand paper) to take the finish off in a small area, usually an edge. I then prep the newly exposed area by tinning it in the same way that you'd tin fresh wires prior to soldering. You'll find that when you place your wires on to the area and heat all at the same time, the solder will flow alot easier in to the joint when you feed it in with your third free hand!! Oh and because it takes longer for the back of the pot to cool down, wait an extra 30 seconds before moving your hand, because you can guarantee that you hadn't waited long enough for the solder to solidify!! (I always manage to do it if I haven't soldered for a while!!) On the subject of dry joints, I owned some really ghastly solder that just would not 'weld' neatly. It always crystalised and looked brittle.. bin bin bin!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='icastle' post='1018550' date='Nov 10 2010, 11:01 AM']Don't blow Soldering onto the back of a pot can be difficult. Best way:- 1) sandpaper a small area that you are going to solder onto - this allows the solder to run smoothly and stops "blobs" appearing. 2) prepare the wire you are wanting to solder onto the pot - get it stripped and make sure you tin it. 3) with enough solder on the end of the iron to make it wet, heat up the back of the pot and every couple of seconds try pushing some solder to the area you are heating to see if it melts. 4) as soon as it melts, add enough solder to cover the area you have pre sanded - you are after a smooth layer of solder, not a half round shape. 5) keeping your iron in the solder flow, quickly push the prepared wire into the mass. 6) stay very very still for at least a minute 7) sorted [/quote] Ha ha ha!! beat me to it! but glad we have a similar method! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 Cheers Guys. I hadn't thought of roughing it up first. Ill give that a go when i take it apart again at the weekend. I only did the volume pot this time but i do want to change the tone pot as well, and use some nicer cloth covered wire so ill have to re open the bass after i get this weeks gig out of the way. For what its worth, this is how i did it. I tinned the leads (3 of them) and then twisted the ends together and soldered them, so i only had one thick wire to deal with. I then held it in place with one of those multi soldering tools that has the clamps on it. I had the end of the wire flat against the back of the pot and then applied some heat and solder to cover it all. This is why i know it didn't move. I wasnt sure how long it would take to heat the back fo the pot, and didnt want to keep the iron on it for too long so i didnt prep the pot first. This sounds like a good idea so ill do it that way next time. All the other wires are hooked and twisted through the eyelets so im not too worried about the dull joints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dood' post='1018562' date='Nov 10 2010, 11:07 AM']Ha ha ha!! beat me to it! but glad we have a similar method![/quote] Yep If our guitars were to explode then CSI BassChat would at least find a pot with a piece of wire on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018582' date='Nov 10 2010, 11:21 AM']I had the end of the wire flat against the back of the pot and then applied some heat and solder to cover it all.[/quote] Thats where you went wrong - you need to get a film of solder nicely flowing on the back of the pot before you introduce the wire(s). If you just add solder to the whole area you just create a blob of solder with a wire in it which sits on a layer of flux - at best it'll just all fall away if you jolt the instrument and at worst it'll just not make a contact at all. I know it's not very environmental to say, but I'm not a great fan of lead free solder either - it seems to have a tendency to produce dry joints very easily whenever I use it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='icastle' post='1018707' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:04 PM']Thats where you went wrong - you need to get a film of solder nicely flowing on the back of the pot before you introduce the wire(s). If you just add solder to the whole area you just create a blob of solder with a wire in it which sits on a layer of flux - at best it'll just all fall away if you jolt the instrument and at worst it'll just not make a contact at all.[/quote] Thanks. Yes, that had crossed my mind and was one of the reasons i started this thread. It looks like its just sitting on the back of the pot, and while it feels firm enough, an dis working fine, i think i will re do it tonight, just in case. Good reply. I would try some non lead free solder but all the places i can get to at lunch time sell just the lead free stuff. Edited November 10, 2010 by dave_bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='icastle' post='1018707' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:04 PM']I know it's not very environmental to say, but I'm not a great fan of lead free solder either - it seems to have a tendency to produce dry joints very easily whenever I use it...[/quote] That's my experience too. Fortunately I still have a large reel of 22swg lead solder, which I'm hoping will last me a very long time! The other thing to consider is the size of the soldering iron. It's not so much a temperature issue, more of a thermal mass issue. A small iron with little thermal mass can be easily cooled down when applied to something like the back of a pot. The result is that it has to be left in contact a lot longer to melt the solder, but by then the user is getting worried about the contact time so tends to rush the joint with the result that the joint is actually formed at a lower than ideal temperature. And this is exacerbated with the higher MP of lead-free solders. In such cases, it's better to have a quite large iron with a large thermal mass so that the iron stays at the right temperature throught out the jointing process. In addition, the item being soldered, e.g. the pot back, heats up quicker so the joint can be made faster. The result is that the metal of the pot is heated more locally because the iron is removed quicker. Consequently, it can actually be easier to overheat a component by using a too-small iron than using a too-large iron (within reason, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 Thanks for that. As im having a "buy the wrong thing" week i did get the wrong solder tips as well. I brought a new 30watt iron but it only came with a pointed tip. I really wanted a chisel tip so brought a packet of tips but of course they were for the wrong iron (in fact for a solder station). I must be getting old as i definitely checked they were the correct ones before i picked them up. I do have a 40watt that might be better for the back of the pot, and this has a thicker tip so maybe ill give that ago tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 I completely misread the title of this thread and thought it must be about uninteresting bars where military personnel hang out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018749' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:39 PM']I do have a 40watt that might be better for the back of the pot, and this has a thicker tip so maybe ill give that ago tonight.[/quote] Yep, that's what I would do. I'm sure you'll notice the difference. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018749' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:39 PM']Thanks for that. As im having a "buy the wrong thing" week i did get the wrong solder tips as well. I brought a new 30watt iron but it only came with a pointed tip. I really wanted a chisel tip so brought a packet of tips but of course they were for the wrong iron (in fact for a solder station). I must be getting old as i definitely checked they were the correct ones before i picked them up. I do have a 40watt that might be better for the back of the pot, and this has a thicker tip so maybe ill give that ago tonight.[/quote] Ah. Yes, try the 40w iron - you'll never manage to solder a cable to the back of a pot using a needle tip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 Cheers guys. The only reason i got a new iron (and didn't use my old fluctuating 25watt) was the coating on the tip of the 40watt seems to be melting, or breaking off. Ive not seen a tip go like this before and was worried it might be getting hotter than it should. Its fairly new as well. So more heat, more mass and less contact time seem to be what's needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018775' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:50 PM']Cheers guys. The only reason i got a new iron (and didn't use my old fluctuating 25watt) was the coating on the tip of the 40watt seems to be melting, or breaking off. Ive not seen a tip go like this before and was worried it might be getting hotter than it should. Its fairly new as well. So more heat, more mass and less contact time seem to be what's needed.[/quote] The tip corroding is due to the rosin based flux used in multicore solder - it's why tips are replaceable. It's not a perfect solution, but you can take a file to the tip and get it back to a point where you can see copper again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='icastle' post='1018800' date='Nov 10 2010, 02:04 PM']The tip corroding is due to the rosin based flux used in multicore solder - it's why tips are replaceable. It's not a perfect solution, but you can take a file to the tip and get it back to a point where you can see copper again.[/quote] Thanks. The iron has only been used 3 times so i was very surprised this happened. My old 25watt iron is about 7 years old and its tip is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018809' date='Nov 10 2010, 02:10 PM']Thanks. The iron has only been used 3 times so i was very surprised this happened. My old 25watt iron is about 7 years old and its tip is fine.[/quote] [b][u][color="#FF0000"][size=5]!!ANORAK ALERT!![/size][/color][/u][/b] The bit is made of copper with an iron coating over it (copper is used as it has good heat transfer ability but reacts adversely with lead - hence the iron coating). An important thing is to ensure that the bit is wetted (coated with solder) before using it the first time - Antex (the bright yellow irons you sometimes see) pre-wet their bits (rest assured - I already regret typing that last statement!), but many manufacturers dont. As I said, if the bit has corroded then just flatten it out with a file (it's knackered anyway), rewet it and use it as normal - only downside is that the corrosion will happen quicker (because there's no iron coating to protect it) and eventually you run out of metal . Edited November 10, 2010 by icastle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 Cheers for coming out publicly lol. That all makes sense. My 25watt is a Antex and the 40watt is a Draper. I did tin the 40watt before using it but i guess i didnt do something right. Yes, i can see some copper and its the iron thats breaking up. Ive got some of that tinning/cleaning power stuff Maplins sell but didnt use it that on that iron. Ive just got the correct tips for the 30watt so might stick with that for now, and picked up some 60 Tin/40 lead solder to see if that helps. Its funny but this is the first time ive worried about all this, but not the first time ive changed pups in a bass. And its the cheap bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018853' date='Nov 10 2010, 03:02 PM']Cheers for coming out publicly lol. That all makes sense. My 25watt is a Antex and the 40watt is a Draper. I did tin the 40watt before using it but i guess i didnt do something right. Yes, i can see some copper and its the iron thats breaking up. Ive got some of that tinning/cleaning power stuff Maplins sell but didnt use it that on that iron. Ive just got the correct tips for the 30watt so might stick with that for now, and picked up some 60 Tin/40 lead solder to see if that helps. Its funny but this is the first time ive worried about all this, but not the first time ive changed pups in a bass. And its the cheap bass.[/quote] I spent my "formative years" as an electronics engineer - so blame them Draper tools are of the budget variety but usually last a bit better than that. 60/40 solder is probably better for soldering onto pots with anyway - it has a lower melting point than the lead free alternatives. No need to worry about it all - you know what you need to do now and nobody got killed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 I took it apart again and re soldered the ground wires. It didnt seem as bad as i thought but i took all the advice posted here and re done it and it is indeed better, and a bit shinier :-) I used the 40watt and the new solder and it seemed a lot easier than last night. Im probably going to re do my other two basses now. Im sure i can do a better job now ive had a bit more practice and proper guidance. Cheers all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1018749' date='Nov 10 2010, 01:39 PM']Thanks for that. As im having a "buy the wrong thing" week i did get the wrong solder tips as well. I brought a new 30watt iron but it only came with a pointed tip. I really wanted a chisel tip so brought a packet of tips but of course they were for the wrong iron (in fact for a solder station). I must be getting old as i definitely checked they were the correct ones before i picked them up.[/quote] Still have them? Maplins type ones? Apparently fit my solder station, so I can paypal ya if they are no use to you. Proper hardware stores do lead solder, make sure it is flux cored, it is a joy to use after being used to fake solder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='1019437' date='Nov 10 2010, 10:19 PM']I took it apart again and re soldered the ground wires. It didnt seem as bad as i thought but i took all the advice posted here and re done it and it is indeed better, and a bit shinier :-) I used the 40watt and the new solder and it seemed a lot easier than last night. Im probably going to re do my other two basses now. Im sure i can do a better job now ive had a bit more practice and proper guidance. Cheers all.[/quote] Brilliant If you've soldered in the other two basses it'd be well worth revisiting them - you might even get an improvement in the sound quality so it's a win/win situation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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