Dull solder joint. Why?

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1019478' date='Nov 10 2010, 10:51 PM']Still have them? Maplins type ones? Apparently fit my solder station, so I can paypal ya if they are no use to you. Proper hardware stores do lead solder, make sure it is flux cored, it is a joy to use after being used to fake solder.[/quote]

No sorry, i got them exchanged for the correct ones, even though i didnt need them tonight.

The solder i got was flux cored and a bit easier to use than the lead free stuff. And yes, it was from a proper hardware store.

Cheers icastle, i think i might open the HW-one up over the weekend and see how its looking. The big difference between the CV P and the others is the new pot. Normally when i change pups the back of the pot is already primed.

Edited November 10, 2010 by dave_bass5

[Bigwan]

In my experience lead free solder produces a duller solder joint than leaded solder. I hate the stuff myself, as do most high volume electronics manufacturers. Just doesn't do the job as well as the real thing.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Bigwan' post='1020000' date='Nov 11 2010, 01:12 PM']In my experience lead free solder produces a duller solder joint than leaded solder. I hate the stuff myself, as do most high volume electronics manufacturers. Just doesn't do the job as well as the real thing.[/quote]

This is what i was thinking. I know my skills aren't great but compared to the other joints in the bass all my joints were dull. I was thinking it might be the solder, that one of the reasons i started this thread.
Looking at the new joint with the new solder there is a bit more shine to it now.

Its all good now. Bass sounds great, looks exactly the same and plays like a dream. Job done.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bigwan' post='1020000' date='Nov 11 2010, 01:12 PM']In my experience lead free solder produces a duller solder joint than leaded solder. I hate the stuff myself, as do most high volume electronics manufacturers. Just doesn't do the job as well as the real thing.[/quote]

I'd guess this is due to the higher melting point, means it cools more quickly in relative terms, so acts more like you've blown on it.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1020011' date='Nov 11 2010, 01:18 PM']Its all good now. Bass sounds great, looks exactly the same and plays like a dream. Job done.[/quote]
That's good to hear. Thanks for the update.

The last company I worked for had a manufacturing facility in the USA and the changeover to lead-free solder cost them a small fortune. Most of their products used surface-mounted devices (SMDs) and the higher melting temperature changed the behaviour of the solder paste during reflow soldering and meant that a lot of their boards and solder-screens had to be slightly redesigned to accommodate this. Since they were a small-volume, specialised manufacturer with a large product range it involved a great deal of work. Still, I'm sure the environment will be grateful.

[icastle]

This discussion about lead free solder got me thinking, so I looked it up.
Can't believe I did, but I did and I'm gonna hold [b]YOU LOT[/b] responsible if I end up going out and buying a kagoule

[b]J-STD-001 Rev D states: [/b]
[i]The primary difference between the solder connections created with processes using tin-lead and processes using lead-free alloys is related to the visual appearance of the solder.

Acceptable lead-free and tin-lead connections may exhibit similar appearances but lead-free alloys are more likely to have:
• Surface roughness (grainy or dull)
• Different wetting contact angles
Lead-free alloys often go beyond dull and surface appearance may actually be grainy.

Inspectors will have to adapt their thinking away from smooth, bright and shiny and realize that rejecting a grainy lead-free joint could be just as bad as accepting a defect.[/i]

Edited November 11, 2010 by icastle

[dave_bass5]

Cheers icastle, that's sort of put my mind at rest over the dullness issue i thought i had. You learn something new everyday.

At least when i put the bass that ill never sell up for sale the buyer can rest assured the joints are good.

I was going to ask about National railway route numbers next........;-)

Edited November 11, 2010 by dave_bass5

[icastle]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1020238' date='Nov 11 2010, 03:29 PM']I was going to ask about National railway route numbers next........;-)[/quote]

Watch it Dave - I have a vague idea of where London is and will hunt you down, replace your solder with a coat hanger wire and watch you suffer...

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='icastle' post='1020267' date='Nov 11 2010, 03:39 PM']Watch it Dave - I have a vague idea of where London is and will hunt you down, replace your solder with a coat hanger wire and watch you suffer... [/quote]

Sorry, no offence meant. I wouldn't want you travelling all this way [i]up north[/i] with your coat (or kagoule) hangers ;-)

I actually threw my lead free solder out last night as i felt the new stuff was easier to work with. Im glad i started this thread now. Ill impress the rest of the band with my new soldering knowledge on Sat.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='icastle' post='1020267' date='Nov 11 2010, 03:39 PM']Watch it Dave - I have a vague idea of where London is and will hunt you down, replace your solder with a coat hanger wire and watch you suffer... [/quote]

Coat hangar wire can make very acceptible welding rods.

Also, tin solder is still bad for the enviroment, because it leads to formation of 'whiskers' or 'fingers' over time, which in turn lead to shorts and failure, meaning the whole item gets binned: [url="http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/photos/pom/2004april.htm"]NASA stuff[/url], [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering"]Gaurdian article.[/url] but hey, you can drink orange juice out of your electrical equipment now.

[icastle]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1020299' date='Nov 11 2010, 03:56 PM']Sorry, no offence meant. I wouldn't want you travelling all this way [i]up north[/i] with your coat (or kagoule) hangers ;-)

I actually threw my lead free solder out last night as i felt the new stuff was easier to work with. Im glad i started this thread now. Ill impress the rest of the band with my new soldering knowledge on Sat.[/quote]

LMAO - either that or they're gonna tell you that you need to get out more!

[icastle]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1020303' date='Nov 11 2010, 03:57 PM']Coat hangar wire can make very acceptible welding rods.[/quote]

I was going to threaten him with snapped G strings, but however I tried to phrase it, it sounded just a little bit "wrong"...

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1020303' date='Nov 11 2010, 03:57 PM']Also, tin solder is still bad for the enviroment, because it leads to formation of 'whiskers' or 'fingers' over time, which in turn lead to shorts and failure, meaning the whole item gets binned: [url="http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/photos/pom/2004april.htm"]NASA stuff[/url], [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering"]Gaurdian article.[/url] but hey, you can drink orange juice out of your electrical equipment now.[/quote]

The whole problem has been created by consumerism.
Years ago if my TV or HiFi went wrong I could take it to a repair shop who would diagnose the fault and replace the offending component(s).
Today, if my TV (I don't actually have one!) or HiFi went wrong, there are very few repair shops about, and those that are about will diagnose down to board level only.

Retailers and manufacturers want us to purchase "the latest xyz123 model".
Thats where the issue with lead waste comes from - not the fact that its used, but the fact that entire products are dumped in landfill for the sake of a 2p resistor.

Recycling doesn't work because shortcuts are taken to meet targets set by people with no interest or understanding of what it is they are trying to manage.
Over in some of the poorer countries there are mountains of broken kit, wire burning on massive open air bonfires to burn off the plastic so they can get to the copper, piles of PCBs floating in stagnant puddles of water.
There is concrete evidence that some of those items are assett tagged and are trackable back to UK police forces, schools, universities, councils and businesses.

Those previous owners have "policies" in place to stop this from happening by using only "approved" recycling facilities... so how does their stuff end up in a mountain of waste, clambered over by 10yr old kids with no shoes on the other side of the world?

Controlling solder is farcical in the big scheme of things - the electrolytes from leaking capacitors are a carcinogen and gets washed into the water table far quicker than lead - don't see anyone trying to do anything about that...

[size=1][color="#808080"][b]THIS HAS BEEN A PUBLIC SERVICE RANT ON BEHALF OF THE "IAN HAS GONE OFF ON ONE" PARTY.[/size][/color][/b]

[Mr. Foxen]

Would you buy a TV built entirely on turret boards though? Things on turrets are a joy to work on, but they are kind of expensive, amps are fairly simple, and a turret-track built very serviceable Matamp will cost you quite a lot more than a very complicated TV. I've spent the last few days tending to a handwired amp, with help from some dudes in the know, they are all pretty close to retirement (except Umph), the skills to be able to just fix stuff is going. Anyway, one of those kids living off mountains of discarded rubbish is me, I collect cable and stuff to sell for scrap, I've just stripped out some washing machines for the wiring for this amp. Actually, now I'm looking about, there is very little I own I haven't been inside fiddling with, this pc is cobbled together from parts, and the fan sheared out and is held in with epoxy putty, those surface mount component boards are near impossible to work on, so fairly happy to go back to where they came from.

Also, another tip I picked up, instead of abrasive paper on the back of pots, scrape with a blade, avoids getting grains of abrasive in your pot.

[dave_bass5]

Well, after all that soldering i think im going to change the volume pot again.

Compared to the Squeir pots both the new CTS pots feel scratchy and cheap. Ive only put the one in but have tested both. The Squier pots are very smooth and feel really nice when i turn them.

There are no sound issues, no scratchy noise or anything like that, i just expected more from a £4 pot. As both are like this i think ill try another brand.

Maybe im being a bit too fussy now but when a "quality" item feels cheaper than a budget one it bugs me.

Ill also give the blade idea a go, cheers for that.

Edited November 11, 2010 by dave_bass5

[flyfisher]

[quote name='icastle' post='1020382' date='Nov 11 2010, 04:50 PM']Thats where the issue with lead waste comes from - not the fact that its used, but the fact that entire products are dumped in landfill for the sake of a 2p resistor.[/quote]
True, because stuff is so cheap today that it's affordable to buy a new TV/Hi-Fi/Phone/Camera/whatever than pay someone £40 an hour to locate the fault and replace the 2p resistor. Plus, surface-mounted components on multi-layer boards are bl**dy difficult to repair anyway. Plus, technology advances so quickly that no-one really wants their TV/Hi-Fi/Phone/Camera/whatever to last for 30 years and a breakdown is a great excuse to buy the latest and greatest. Besides, few consumer electronic items are designed to last for 3 years, never mind 30. The throw-away society is well-named.

[icastle]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1020776' date='Nov 11 2010, 10:23 PM']Would you buy a TV built entirely on turret boards though? Things on turrets are a joy to work on, but they are kind of expensive, amps are fairly simple, and a turret-track built very serviceable Matamp will cost you quite a lot more than a very complicated TV. I've spent the last few days tending to a handwired amp, with help from some dudes in the know, they are all pretty close to retirement (except Umph), the skills to be able to just fix stuff is going.[/quote]

Apart from the fact that I'd never buy a TV anyway?
I get your point though but I do find it a real shame that the skills to repair down to component level are dying out.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1020776' date='Nov 11 2010, 10:23 PM']Anyway, one of those kids living off mountains of discarded rubbish is me, I collect cable and stuff to sell for scrap, I've just stripped out some washing machines for the wiring for this amp. Actually, now I'm looking about, there is very little I own I haven't been inside fiddling with, this pc is cobbled together from parts, and the fan sheared out and is held in with epoxy putty, those surface mount component boards are near impossible to work on, so fairly happy to go back to where they came from.[/quote]

I wasn't slagging the kids or you off in the least , just making the point that the "green policies" are just smoke and mirrors to hit soft targets that are made up by people with no expertise in their subject field.
My guitar leads don't get replaced - they just get a few inches shorter whenever they fail and I have a 40'x20' brick built outhouse thats full of "usable stuff" that is getting in the way of the recording studio that was the main reason for buying this house.
I'm certainly no eco-warrior - just very aware of where stuff ends up...

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1020776' date='Nov 11 2010, 10:23 PM']Also, another tip I picked up, instead of abrasive paper on the back of pots, scrape with a blade, avoids getting grains of abrasive in your pot.[/quote]

I was a bit generic in my terminology there, I use that grey "wet & dry" stuff - just leaves a little wet grey sludge that I mop up with a bit of kitchen roll.

The knife idea is cool but I'm still not allowed sharp shiny stuff...