Tone, and lacquer

[MoonBassAlpha]

I stumbled across this the other day.
It is worth reading the whole site for this guy's views and philosophy about what makes stuff sound good and bad.
He is coming from an ultra hi-fi perspective, but there is a little bit about guitars on this page:
[url="http://www.mother-of-tone.com/lacquer.htm"]This page here[/url]

I was wondering if this lack of thick plastic coating is a contributing factor as to why (some) folks like the tone of Warwicks so much.

Also interesting to see the speaker kits, and how simple the (hi-fi) bass box is compared to the designs for decent bass guitar cabs.

[Doctor J]

When I got my first Bacchus, an oil finished Standard 5 model, I was stunned by how well it projected sound unplugged. I've picked up a few more Bacchus' (Bacchii?) since, a mix of nitro or oil finished guitars and basses, and to my ears at least they definitely have something extra compared to a lot of the more established and popular brands I've owned. That being said, it's not just the lack of a poly coat which shapes the tone of an instrument, everything has an influence but it is funny when people bang on about maple fretboard vs rosewood fretboard that the effect of the thick poly coating on the maple is rarely taken into consideration. And then there's graphite...

If you think of the sound of a P bass and the sound of a Stingray though, can you hear the character of the fretboard wood or do you hear the pickup?

And I'd really like to meet the man who can hear the difference between a wooden pickup cover and a plastic one.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Doctor J

[stevie]

I would personally take anything this chap says with a very big pinch of salt.

[Mr. Foxen]

Basses I've made out of bits myself are mostly oil finished, but the one that I chose because it was acoustically loudest (and thus best sounding) is poly finished. I could strip it off and see if it makes a difference, but I don't really want to.

[Noisyjon]

I think that it's just one of many factors that may effect the intruments tone but surely to most decent and well made basses it won't matter that much?

I would never worry personally as the average punter at gigs certainly won't be able to tell the difference

Edited November 11, 2010 by jonthebass

[xilddx]

[quote name='stevie' post='1019809' date='Nov 11 2010, 10:42 AM']I would personally take anything this chap says with a very big pinch of salt.[/quote]
Me too, totally bollocks and unscientific. Rubbish.

[MoonBassAlpha]

[quote name='silddx' post='1019836' date='Nov 11 2010, 11:00 AM']Me too, totally bollocks and unscientific. Rubbish.[/quote]

What's the finish like on your Warwicks?

[chris_b]

[quote name='silddx' post='1019836' date='Nov 11 2010, 11:00 AM']....Me too, totally bollocks and unscientific. Rubbish....[/quote]
Ahh. expert analysis, as usual.

[xilddx]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1019843' date='Nov 11 2010, 11:09 AM']What's the finish like on your Warwicks? [/quote]
Black High Polish on the fretted.

Acrylic on the Fretless.



[url="http://forum.warwick.de/10-warwick-basses/2050-sound-natural-oil-finish-vs-high-polish.html"]http://forum.warwick.de/10-warwick-basses/...igh-polish.html[/url]

Edited November 11, 2010 by silddx

[xilddx]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1019850' date='Nov 11 2010, 11:17 AM']Ahh. expert analysis, as usual.[/quote]
As expert as the op's link Chris

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote]those old fender pickguards were made of celluloid, and thus sound much better than modern plastic pickguards. However, a wooden pickguard sounds best.[/quote]
I bet they sound even better coated with snake-oil though

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1019870' date='Nov 11 2010, 11:36 AM']I bet they sound even better coated with snake-oil though [/quote]

Nail > Head > Hit I think J-LP!

[Mr. Foxen]

Tone is all about keywords: plastic = bad, wood = good, so describe something as 'plastic' makes it sound bad, describing same thing as 'natural' means it sounds 'distinctive'.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1019905' date='Nov 11 2010, 12:10 PM']Tone is all about keywords: plastic = bad, wood = good, so describe something as 'plastic' makes it sound bad, describing same thing as 'natural' means it sounds 'distinctive'.[/quote]
What about "cellulose"?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='silddx' post='1019914' date='Nov 11 2010, 12:15 PM']What about "cellulose"? [/quote]

natural wood lacquer. Cellulose has an actual specific meaning, I'm picking out the words that are used that don't mean anything, except an association with 'good tone'. Is 'tone' even the right word? Should it be 'timbre'?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1019922' date='Nov 11 2010, 12:20 PM']natural wood lacquer. Cellulose has an actual specific meaning, I'm picking out the words that are used that don't mean anything, except an association with 'good tone'. Is 'tone' even the right word? Should it be 'timbre'?[/quote]
Timbre, correct.

[Bassassin]

I pretty much gave up after he used the scientific term "sounds like sh!t" for about the fifth time, because unfortunately the entire article was sounding to me a little to much like one long, gaseous, loose bowel movement.

I hate this pretentious rubbish so much. Pickups, strings, electronics, playing technique, amp, speaker, EQ, room acoustics etc account for 99.9 of what any electric bass or guitar will sound like. I remain unconvinced that even the bridge or nut - unless they're failing to do their job properly - make a discernible difference to what you hear coming out of your loudspeaker.

I suppose a specially trained dog might be able detect whatever influence a bit of wood & a couple of microns of shiny coating have, but it wouldn't be able to describe it too well, so what exactly's left? Good, old fashioned self-delusion.

Jon.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1019973' date='Nov 11 2010, 12:57 PM']I pretty much gave up after he used the scientific term "sounds like sh!t" for about the fifth time, because unfortunately the entire article was sounding to me a little to much like one long, gaseous, loose bowel movement.

I hate this pretentious rubbish so much. Pickups, strings, electronics, playing technique, amp, speaker, EQ, room acoustics etc account for 99.9 of what any electric bass or guitar will sound like. I remain unconvinced that even the bridge or nut - unless they're failing to do their job properly - make a discernible difference to what you hear coming out of your loudspeaker.

I suppose a specially trained dog might be able detect whatever influence a bit of wood & a couple of microns of shiny coating have, but it wouldn't be able to describe it too well, so what exactly's left? Good, old fashioned self-delusion.

Jon.[/quote]

And I don't see any evidence of before-and-after sound clips

[MoonBassAlpha]

[quote name='silddx' post='1019989' date='Nov 11 2010, 01:07 PM']And I don't see any evidence of before-and-after sound clips [/quote]

Seeing as he's an ultra hi-fi boff it doesn't surprise me there's no sound clips on his site , think about it! What would you be listening to those "sound clips" on? Though I would agree, if the difference were that noticable, you might hear it on any old p.o.s.

But back to the original point, what I was trying to get at, without explicitly asking, was if anyone has two similar models of bass, one of which had been stripped, and noticed an appreciable difference.
Or even a bass that had been stripped and sounded (better, different, worse)?

[xilddx]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1020037' date='Nov 11 2010, 01:40 PM']Seeing as he's an ultra hi-fi boff it doesn't surprise me there's no sound clips on his site , think about it! What would you be listening to those "sound clips" on? Though I would agree, if the difference were that noticable, you might hear it on any old p.o.s.

But back to the original point, what I was trying to get at, without explicitly asking, was if anyone has two similar models of bass, one of which had been stripped, and noticed an appreciable difference.
Or even a bass that had been stripped and sounded (better, different, worse)?[/quote]
Hello mate,

Your first point. No bass amp and cab is really HiFi. And none of us listens to music on the same kit he listens to his on, or monitors his recordings on.

Second point. The only way to tell is with the same bass, painted, then stripped and compared using lab conditions. The cut of wood on a different bass will make more difference to the timbre of the instrument than the finish, or lack of finish, will in most cases.

[MoonBassAlpha]

[quote name='silddx' post='1020056' date='Nov 11 2010, 01:55 PM']Hello mate,

Your first point. No bass amp and cab is really HiFi. And none of us listens to music on the same kit he listens to his on, or monitors his recordings on.

Second point. The only way to tell is with the same bass, painted, then stripped and compared using lab conditions. The cut of wood on a different bass will make more difference to the timbre of the instrument than the finish, or lack of finish, will in most cases.[/quote]
That's why I put the last line in my previous post.

[Low End Bee]

He's written it all on a plastic keyboard.

I'd have paid attention if he'd written it like me on a hand crafted Agarwood keybopadgf..."£&$* splinters!

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='stevie' post='1019809' date='Nov 11 2010, 10:42 AM']I would personally take anything this chap says with a very big pinch of salt.[/quote]
Having stripped two basses I don't think the tonal difference was all that noticeable. You gotta love an expert though

[xilddx]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1020065' date='Nov 11 2010, 02:00 PM']That's why I put the last line in my previous post.[/quote]
But who really would care anyway, except maybe in a lame attept to prove a pointless point. Given that the fundemental tone of an electric instrument when amplified comes from so many factors.

What's really funny to me is when people insist on a natural oiled finish because of the TONE, and then install active electronics

Who really gives a toss about micro adjustments to tone of the bass by stripping the paint, when the eq of their amps is in fixed bands and Q, then into a desk with tons of EQ possibilities, the influence of the tonal characteristics of the desk and recording medium, the mastering process, the consumer's equipment, and so on. That's aside from all the other components that go into the core tone of a bass before you f*** it all up with eq and other equipment.

[xilddx]

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='1020084' date='Nov 11 2010, 02:12 PM']Having stripped two basses I don't think the tonal difference was all that noticeable. You gotta love an expert though [/quote]
The main moderator on the Warwick forum did the same. And some other Warwick owners were shocked thinking now that Warwick's natural oil finishes are not there for a better sound, The Sound of Wood! They really don't consider that it's purely for aesthetic reasons borne out of cost, time and effort savings.