Tone, and lacquer

[MoonBassAlpha]

Thanks, this is what I was hoping to find out.
From other people who had done similar, and that it doesn't make a discernable difference. With basses.
It's a good job we're not talking about acoustic guitars or violins.... (only kidding! )

[xilddx]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1020200' date='Nov 11 2010, 03:09 PM']Thanks, this is what I was hoping to find out.
From other people who had done similar, and that it doesn't make a discernable difference. With basses.
[b]It's a good job we're not talking about acoustic guitars or violins.... (only kidding! )[/b][/quote]

If we were, there would be no issue, nothing to dicuss

[Chris2112]

This guy is obviously one of those old bug bear characters, I was rolling eyes when I got to bit where he said all instruments finished in "modern lacquer" sound crap!

[xilddx]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1020372' date='Nov 11 2010, 04:44 PM']This guy is obviously one of those old bug bear characters, I was rolling eyes when I got to bit where he said all instruments finished in "modern lacquer" sound crap![/quote]
Have you read this [url="http://www.mother-of-tone.com/mother.htm"]http://www.mother-of-tone.com/mother.htm[/url]

[b]An extract ..[/b]

"But which material has the most pleasing tone ?

The answer is simple: Which material do YOU consist of ?

Bones and flesh. That's it.

The ear, your listening organ, has its own tonal character, according to its construction and the cellular material it consists of.

Like any microphone has a tonal character, your ears have too.

This is the 'Mother of Tone' character.

Would your ears be made of aluminium, they would have a different tonal character. But this is not the point. The point is, that the tonal characteristic of your ear is the yardstick for any sound you are able to perceive, and that sounds are evaluated in a way that corresponds to the distance or strangeness with respect to the Mother-of-Tone character.

According to the Law of Attraction (like attracts like), the sound-character of a material that comes close to your own material is pleasing, whereas a sound character starts to hurt, the less the sound emanating material has to do with your own cellular material.

This is a simple realization, but you can explain a whole musical world with it. The characteristic construction and material of your ear is the yardstick, and the more a sound comes close to that characteristic, the better you feel and the more you are attracted to that sound.

Try for your own. Listen attentively to sounds you like and dislike and see what materials are involved.

Okay, how to make use of that ?

Since we cannot make hifi-equipment out of flesh and bones, we have to look for a material that is at hand, and is related to our ears characteristic.

This material is wood. A cellular plant material. Ideal for the construction of musical instruments, loudspeakers, etc.

In fact, our whole body is put together by digesting plant material. Even if we eat a Steak, the cow has been eating plants before. So we are much more related to wood, than we are to ceramics, aluminium, plastics, steel or titanium.

This is the reason that ...

... Wood Sounds Good
In fact, almost every kind of wood sounds good. "

[Lfalex v1.1]

That's odd.
Of my favourite few basses, 3 are fully painted and have phenolic fretboards. One of them has NO wood in it at all.
Of course, being a Status... [i]What's the expression?[/i].... Every note is ugliness!
Fortunately, my Warwick can save me!

I'd just love to know what alternative materials this guy uses for frets, truss rod (!) and so on.
That does raise an interesting issue- Is it possible to make a bass that is totally devoid of metal? That might be one for someone to try when they've got some (considerable) time to kill. I wonder how it migh sound (apart from likely being fretless, of course)

[MoonBassAlpha]

You've never seen the adjustable "string" frets they use on some lutes?

[Lfalex v1.1]

Yes, I saw them twice just recently on two other forums, LuteChat and TalkLute
I don't know how well they'd hold up against the gut strings I'm going to have to use...

I'll have a look over on ViolinBanter. They had a thread on the effects of covering your Stradivarius in creosote, too.

[MoonBassAlpha]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='1020411' date='Nov 11 2010, 05:14 PM']I'd just love to know what alternative materials this guy uses for frets, truss rod (!) and so on.
That does raise an interesting issue- Is it possible to make a bass that is totally devoid of metal? That might be one for someone to try when they've got some (considerable) time to kill. I wonder how it migh sound (apart from likely being fretless, of course)[/quote]

A double bass would fit this criterion. I've heard they can sound quite nice.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='1020411' date='Nov 11 2010, 05:14 PM']That does raise an interesting issue- Is it possible to make a bass that is totally devoid of metal? That might be one for someone to try when they've got some (considerable) time to kill. I wonder how it migh sound (apart from likely being fretless, of course)[/quote]
You'd still have put up with the glue used to join the bits of wood together adversely affecting the tone.

Unless you got Jens Ritter to make it out of a single piece of wood...

[BOD2]

There's one big problem with this whole "vintage guitars sound better because nitro lets the wood breathe and modern poly doesn't" argument.

It's called Fullerplast.

[url="http://www.caraguitars.com/fullerplast.asp"]http://www.caraguitars.com/fullerplast.asp[/url]

Basically, all your vintage Fenders from around 1963 onwards were sprayed with a 2-part catalyzed coating to seal the wood prior to finishing with nitro cellulose lacquer. There wouldn't be much "breathing" going on through that stuff !

Also, wood doesn't breathe. It's dead - it stopped "breathing" when they chopped the tree down.

Some guitars just sound better than others for all sorts of reasons. The finish of the guitar is just one small factor among many.

[Prime_BASS]

As always "tone" is subjective.

[Legion]

[quote name='BOD2' post='1020701' date='Nov 11 2010, 09:15 PM']Also, wood doesn't breathe. It's dead - it stopped "breathing" when they chopped the tree down.[/quote]
I was just browsing this thread and I felt the need to pipe in at this point. I'm not suggesting finish affects tone but wood certainly continues to "breathe" long after the tree is cut down. Moisture content in wood constantly changes with its environment for a very very long time. I would imagine this is what people are referring to when they say that the "wood can breathe". Sealing the wood away from its environment with poly finishes etc means that the wood can no longer "breathe" and its moisture content should stay very stable compared to an unfinished piece of wood.

Now from a consistent tone approach surely sealing it and stabilising its characteristics is a good thing?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Legion' post='1021072' date='Nov 12 2010, 10:06 AM']I was just browsing this thread and I felt the need to pipe in at this point. I'm not suggesting finish affects tone but wood certainly continues to "breathe" long after the tree is cut down. Moisture content in wood constantly changes with its environment for a very very long time. I would imagine this is what people are referring to when they say that the "wood can breathe". Sealing the wood away from its environment with poly finishes etc means that the wood can no longer "breathe" and its moisture content should stay very stable compared to an unfinished piece of wood.

Now from a consistent tone approach surely sealing it and stabilising its characteristics is a good thing?[/quote]
Bearing in mind that the wood has been kiln dried or stored and dried naturally for many years. The moisture is minimal and usually it will be natural oils.

Try "breathing" through Fullerplast or nitro

Some say the extra movement in the wood of an unfinished body compared to the restriction of movement in a finished body affects the tone "positively" in an electric instrument. I would dispute that because there are so many other factors involved.

[Vibrating G String]

Over the years I've met hundreds of people and read thousands of posts from people who can look at a guitar and once they know what it's made from can go on and on about how their super human ears can tell things that are undetectable in lab instruments many times more sensitive than the human ear.

I have never met a single person who can only listen to a guitar or bass and tell me what kind of wood is used or anything about he finish or metals used on it.

Over the years I've met hundreds of people and read thousands of posts from people who think they are psychic or have supernatural powers...

These claims are so often beyond ridiculous it's like people saying they can see molecules.

Anyone care to listen to a clip and tell me what woods & finish are used?

Edited November 13, 2010 by Vibrating G String

[hillbilly deluxe]

IMO,a beter way to tell if there is any difference would be to play a bass with no finish,then play after it has been finished.That way there would be no filler/sanding sealer.

[Doctor J]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1021174' date='Nov 12 2010, 11:27 AM']Over the years I've met hundreds of people and read thousands of posts from people who can look at a guitar and once they know what it's made from can go on and on about how their super human ears can tell things that are undetectable in a lab my instruments many times more sensitive than the human ear.

I have never met a single person who can only listen to a guitar or bass and tell me what kind of wood is used or anything about he finish or metals used on it.

Over the years I've met hundreds of people and read thousands of posts from people who think they are psychic or have supernatural powers...

These claims are so often beyond ridiculous it's like people saying they can see molecules.

Anyone care to listen to a clip and tell me what woods & finish are used?[/quote]


Steve Vai has a signature cable, you know. Can't get that tone without it. I hear he's got signature solder on the way.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1021282' date='Nov 12 2010, 12:32 PM']

Steve Vai has a signature cable, you know. Can't get that tone without it. I hear he's got signature solder on the way.




[/quote]
Um I would posit that your cable makes more of a difference to your tone than paint ever could.

[Doctor J]

[quote name='silddx' post='1021292' date='Nov 12 2010, 12:36 PM']Um I would posit that your cable makes more of a difference to your tone than paint ever could.[/quote]
Silk Road vs something good, sure. Do you reckon you could hear the difference between two high quality cables though?

Do you reckon Steve makes sure the mic leads and PA cables are the same, to ensure his tone isn't tainted by non-Steve Vai brand cable?

Edited November 12, 2010 by Doctor J

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1021296' date='Nov 12 2010, 12:38 PM']Silk Road vs something good, sure. Do you reckon you could hear the difference between two high quality cables though?[/quote]
What lengths

[Doctor J]

[quote name='silddx' post='1021310' date='Nov 12 2010, 12:46 PM']What lengths [/quote]


Let's say 2 metres, blind test, who's in?

[Davo-London]

The vehemence of the "it can't make any difference" camp sounds like denial to me.

I'm happy to remain open minded about it. The luthiers I admire, Cliff Bordwell and Carl Thompson, tend to finish their basses with oil.

Davo

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Davo-London' post='1022082' date='Nov 13 2010, 01:09 AM']The vehemence of the "it can't make any difference" camp sounds like denial to me.[/quote]
Why do you think that? What would be the logic in denying it if it did make an apparent, immediately obvious & quantifiable difference?

To my ears, it doesn't, and to my analytical faculties there is absolutely no reason why it should.

J.

[Kiwi]

His claims have basis in fact, but he's taking massive leaps in logic and contorting the facts to fit his circumstances.

The case with the strad violin was more theory than fact. (The only way to prove the fact would be to strip a strad and remeasure its resonancy peaks). Varnish tends to have MORE of an impact on hollow instruments like violins. Less so with solid instruments because they've been designed to be more rigid. Who can say how much the sound of a specific instrument is finish and how much is wood/electronics/hardware?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1021296' date='Nov 12 2010, 04:38 AM']Silk Road vs something good, sure. Do you reckon you could hear the difference between two high quality cables though?[/quote]
There's a million dollars waiting for the first person that can.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Davo-London' post='1022082' date='Nov 12 2010, 05:09 PM']The vehemence of the "it can't make any difference" camp sounds like denial to me.[/quote]
Who says it can't make any difference?

Edited November 13, 2010 by Vibrating G String