A rather more serious HappyJackShit topic

[Happy Jack]

Stuck at home after damaging myself last night, I've been reading NiceGuyHomer's thread.

It got me thinking, what's really been happening, what's going to happen next?

Here's my take. Please make appropriate allowances for sweeping generalisations.

When the downturn arrived like a landslide (autumn 2008) the For Sale section stalled as confidence evaporated. Most people with cash were hanging on to it, and prices for good / rare / vintage basses were pretty inflated, so activity slowed right down. I remember looking at For Sale at Xmas 2008 and being astonished at how little was moving.

But the downturn didn't lead to a collapse. Gordon Brown's QE policy kept pumpimg money into the economy, so failing firms didn't quite fail, and unemployment didn't rocket. ([color="#008000"]This is NOT a thread about politics - this is economics.[/color]) But the cash still wasn't there.

So Basschat developed into a really interesting barter economy. Suddenly, everything was "FS/FT" and there were far more trades going on than sales. All the way through 2009 I was trading basses and so were loads of other people, while the economy stayed in a state of suspended disbelief ... everyone knew that things were bad and getting worse, but kept hoping that we were levelling out.

Strangely, 2010 has seen a gradual return to more basses For Sale only, and there seems to have been a bit more cash about, but the Government Spending Review has been a real wake-up call that the worst is yet to come, and the For Sale section has now stalled again.

There are some truly gorgeous basses in For Sale at the moment, but (and I mean no offence to any of the vendors) I suspect a number of them are still looking for too much money, if cash is what they're after. I think we're heading into another period of mainly barter activity, and I think high-end bass prices will continue to slide throughout 2011.

[Noisyjon]

+1
As an example I never expected to have got hold of a Fender Masterbuilt. Ever. Especially for the price I did...
I put down to a sign of the times/economy.

As said before a serious buyers market at the moment.

[Ou7shined]

I agree to a degree but it's worth mentioning that there was a boom in FT threads as a reaction to the "you must state a price rule" which was brought in to cut down on bidding wars.

Sadly "FT" has now become the secret code for "I don't want to openly post a price, offers by PM please". (but that's a whole other thread)

[Alfie]

I haven't had much problem selling here recently, but then again my stuff isn't high end.

What bugs me is the unrealistic greedy pricing of some sellers. If I want to sell something for more than it's worth I will stick it on eBay with a 99p start, it almost always sells for over the going market rate. On Basschat I price between two thirds and three quarters of what I paid for it/its new price (whichever is the smaller amount) because it is not new and I have no right to expect a return on my investment, that was the risk I made when buying a new instrument, it really bugs me when people try to sell a used item for the same price you could get it new at an online shop, despite not having the benefits of a return policy or warranty.

While it is not so much the case now that the forum has grown so much, I also think that in selling on Basschat there is a certain sense of helping people out to experience gear they otherwise would have no access to, by pricing slightly cheaper it helps things circulate and it all balances itself out eventually. This is why it annoys me when people try to sell used items for more than they paid for them, we can all see what the value of the item was and I would feel slightly dirty to purchase an item where the Basschat system has been abused by naked profiteering.

[The Twickerman]

I haven't been around these boards long enough to know the history.

I am not surprised trading has been prevalent in the past - especially given the relatively high prices of instruments (not just Rickenbackers) and the uncertainty in the economy. I agree there has been a few glimmers of optimism over the last 18 months, which ought to have seen more buoyant sales, but now, with the prospects of redundancy looming over many of us, we are suddenly much more cautious in our spending.

I would therefore also expect to see more trading, but also downward pressure on sales prices.

Time will tell...

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Alfie' post='1021189' date='Nov 12 2010, 11:32 AM']I haven't had much problem selling here recently, but then again my stuff isn't high end.

What bugs me is the unrealistic greedy pricing of some sellers. If I want to sell something for more than it's worth I will stick it on eBay with a 99p start, it almost always sells for over the going market rate. On Basschat I price between two thirds and three quarters of what I paid for it/its new price (whichever is the smaller amount) because it is not new and I have no right to expect a return on my investment, that was the risk I made when buying a new instrument, it really bugs me when people try to sell a used item for the same price you could get it new at an online shop, despite not having the benefits of a return policy or warranty.

[b]While it is not so much the case now that the forum has grown so much, I also think that in selling on Basschat there is a certain sense of helping people out to experience gear they otherwise would have no access to, by pricing slightly cheaper it helps things circulate and it all balances itself out eventually. This is why it annoys me when people try to sell used items for more than they paid for them, we can all see what the value of the item was and I would feel slightly dirty to purchase an item where the Basschat system has been abused by naked profiteering.[/b][/quote]
+1

[BassBod]

I've found trading is far more effective, and better value. Once instruments (even highest end) get to a few years old their relative value tends to level out..and some less desirable ones gain some hindsight value. All good for a musician of limited means!

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='Alfie' post='1021189' date='Nov 12 2010, 11:32 AM']...This is why it annoys me when people try to sell used items for more than they paid for them...[/quote]

I've only seen it a couple of times and it does annoy me, rightly or wrongly.
Also I never twigged about the FT & 'secret code' thing

[Johngh]

I've made one or two serious offers on basses for sale on here over the last few weeks and had them turned down over a few quid.
Money's been in the bank, and I've been happy to travel long distances to pick them up, but when you take into account the cost of fuel if the seller won't barter, it makes buying the bass too expensive.
I won't buy unseen, been stung once to often.

[martthebass]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1021100' date='Nov 12 2010, 10:27 AM']Strangely, 2010 has seen a gradual return to more basses For Sale only, and there seems to have been a bit more cash about, but the Government Spending Review has been a real wake-up call that the worst is yet to come, and the For Sale section has now stalled again.[/quote]

Inclined to agree with you HJ. Recently I sold a MM Fretless and ended up at a price a good deal less than what I'd consider average. But I was being lazy and rationaled that with paypal yadda yadda I was probably only £50 off the best I could get at the time and I consider the (relatively) painless selling on BC to be worth it.

More recently I decided to do the FS/FT type route on a +£1000 bass but that didn't come off. In the end you have to decide the lowest you'll accept for a bass (laziness or not) and stick to it. I think there's lean times for a while so you're in the best place if you're happy with your current collection of gear.

[CS2]

Bearing in mind that people can ask what they want for their items..

A while back you would see something go up at a price, stay that way for a while and then be reduced once or twice and then sold or pulled. Now there are items with a 'not reducing' statement and they either sell or not. My conclusion is that things are not so bad that people have to sell gear, they want to.

I personally have money in the bank for a bass and I know what one I want. I also have not seen one for the price I will pay for it. That's not the sellers fault, it's my expectation based on what I think is fair for that item. I think that is the case with a lot of (non) buyers.

BTW when I have sold I have either ono'd or taken something as a partial trade and then sold it on later.

[Musicman20]

Personally, I prefer to buy new. Expensive? Yes. Warranty? Hell yes. Piece of mind that if you dislike it or it isnt up to scratch you can swap for another or refund? Hell yes.

It costs more, but Im a perfectionist.

Saying that, Ive bought a HS410 on here and Clarkys old P bass, and both were great and as described, plus I could 100% trust both sellers. I just know im too fussy for most used gear unless they user is as careful with their gear as me.

The good thing is, buyers get my gear which has been selected from a bunch, (eg a decent Fender) and its been very well looked after.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Musicman20

[merello]

Interesting.
I have sold and bought on here and some have went fast and others more slowly. The slow item was an item I traded for and eventually sold for about £100 less than the value of the trade. Then again, maybe we both overvalued the trade!

The fast item I put on sale for £120 and eventually got about £160!

Was I at it? No - it was my first item, I wanted it picked up, a buyer wanted it sent, I had to add a case and postage!

Times are tough though!

ps - anyone want to buy an ESP 400 at 3 times the price I paid for it!

[Delberthot]

I've just realised that I've gone from having gigging gear that would cost in the region of about £3500 new to about £1800 now.

May be a realisation that I don't feel the need to own expensive gear any more, who knows.

[Lysdexia]

[quote name='Alfie' post='1021189' date='Nov 12 2010, 11:32 AM']I haven't had much problem selling here recently, but then again my stuff isn't high end.

[b]What bugs me is the unrealistic greedy pricing of some sellers[/b]. If I want to sell something for more than it's worth I will stick it on eBay with a 99p start, it almost always sells for over the going market rate. On Basschat I price between two thirds and three quarters of what I paid for it/its new price (whichever is the smaller amount) because it is not new and I have no right to expect a return on my investment, that was the risk I made when buying a new instrument, it really bugs me when people try to sell a used item for the same price you could get it new at an online shop, despite not having the benefits of a return policy or warranty.

While it is not so much the case now that the forum has grown so much, I also think that in selling on Basschat there is a certain sense of helping people out to experience gear they otherwise would have no access to, by pricing slightly cheaper it helps things circulate and it all balances itself out eventually. This is why it annoys me when people try to sell used items for more than they paid for them, we can all see what the value of the item was and I would feel slightly dirty to purchase an item where [b]the Basschat system has been abused by naked profiteering.[/b][/quote]

There's zero point in getting annoyed about this - the market dictates what price people are happy to sell and buy for.

And whilst I don't mind people making a few bob on a sale if they can, if I was going to allow myself to get emotive about any of this then I would have some sympathy for those who have to sell very quickly. Not so sympathetic as to refuse to take a bargain mind you! Negotiations (of any kind) are generally biased against those attached to a desired outcome. There have been some amazing bargains here over the years - and it would be fair to assume that pressing cash needs of sellers mean nothing to the bargain hunters.

After all - it's only a market-place facilitated by basschat. Not a controlled economy for the peoples republic of basschat.

[Gust0o]

Unsurprising that we're seeing much more barter activity occuring within the forum - indeed, it's something we're seeing in the wider market; businesses are bartering services, and there's even a bespoke service provider now looking to facilitate such arrangements.

The human nature to seek something new is still with us. Demand is still present. Previously it was hampered by a combination of supply and the means to fufil transactions; trade is the obvious way around a lot of that. Want something new? Cash light? Leverage existing capital in the transaction - trade!

I've made two sales, two purchases and two trades in the last 12 months. It's a healthy balance, I feel.

But yes, as a general note, the market here seems less vociferous than previous. No silly bargains to be had; pricing is tight on a lot of items.

[LawrenceH]

There have been several items on here recently that were straight off ebay and re-sold at profit. That's all well and good, but if basschat becomes a marketplace for what is effectively professional trading, then I wonder about fees being more formalised.

[Musicman20]

Ive definitely noticed some items (very rarely) being sold for more than they were bought for, even ones that were bought from a shop then sold for £100 or more 2 weeks later, without realising that the basschat masses remember when the said seller raved on about the purchase.

No probs if its had a setup or upgrades, esp if it was second hand anyway, but the rest makes me think that some members are making a tidy profit and almost half a living off it.

This is rare though.

[Gust0o]

I'll second Lysdexia above, in respect of the market dictating the pricing - though I will note that the Basschat system is slightly distorted from classic push/pull dynamics of supply and demand; we have subjectivity in the mix! Emotional value imbued in objects.

Thus 'worth' is a more open concept - and a difficult one to place, even allowing for moments of profiteering (and there's nothing wrong in that, provided the recipient finds value in the object equal or beyond the price paid) and naivete.

Also, as Lysdexia again notes (in what is becoming my favourite post of the day) this is not a control economy for mutual benefit - it's a 'For Sale' section. It might seem cynical, but so are all commercial activities on some intrinsic basis.

Of course, there's plenty Basschat might look to do to regulate the section, if the community thought there were serious issues - capped sales; disclosure for traders; etc.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Gust0o

[phil.i.stein]

doesn't this just happen at this time of year anyway ? less disposable income etc... ?

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1021514' date='Nov 12 2010, 02:54 PM']There have been several items on here recently that were straight off ebay and re-sold at profit. That's all well and good, but if basschat becomes a marketplace for what is effectively professional trading, then I wonder about fees being more formalised.[/quote]
There's a bass that has been changing hands on here for £350 a time. It was sold again recently and practically went straight on the bay for £500* and not advertised on here. I'm not saying it's wrong but it makes you wonder about the futility of those of us that err on the side of helping out fellow BCers sometimes.

*btw it probably won't sell for this because it was naively hyped up in the FS thread on here as being worth a lot more... which is probably the reason it was purchased.

[Oldman]

I have to agree with most of the sentiments, but it is the buyers choice to do or not to do the due diligence on his prospective purchase. As a rule of thumb your "Retail" purchase is worth about 50/60% of what you paid from the minute you use it. If our head ruled our heart we would'nt do the deal, but it does'nt, so we look, we buy, we like for a while maybe have second thoughts and try and shift for as much as what we paid. If that does'nt work the item may be hyped and bayed as well. Its subjective, I like the craic on this forum and appreciate the varied responses and I feel I can tell when someone is "at it" but everyone to their own, its still a good forum notwithstanding the subterfuge of some sleakit vendors. If you want it buy it............but patience !

[Happy Jack]

Once you hit "Post New Topic", the thread you started is no longer yours, it's everybody's.

I started this topic to speculate on what might happen to prices in 2011, rather than to criticise the mechanism by how a market works. Now look what you've done.

The ENTIRE purpose of a market, any market, anywhere in the world, any time in history, is to establish the "right" price for goods.

This is not a moral judgment or a piece of pontification, it's a very simple and repeatable observation.

If I sell a bass to Tom, Dick or Harry for £500 and they turn it around for £600 next day, why should I complain? Maybe I set my price wrong. Maybe I was feeling generous. Maybe I was in a hurry. Maybe I wanted to deal with someone I already knew. Maybe they were lucky. Maybe they were smarter than me. Maybe they described it better. I could go on like this all day. So could you.

I've chosen in the past to sell basses on Basschat for less than they were worth, and I'm very well aware that others have done so too. Their reasons were their own. Mine were that I feel that this is a community, and that's how I like to behave in a community.

Again, no value judgment there. If there's one thing I'm not, it's "holier than thou".

I've never chosen to sell basses on eBay for less than they were worth, but I had no part in the decision! The eBay market determined what the "right" price was. That's how it works.

And frequently, it's impossible even to gauge how much I've "paid" for a bass. Sitting next to me is [url="http://tinypic.com/a/2i2wp/3"]http://tinypic.com/a/2i2wp/3[/url].

How much did I "pay" for it? Damned if I know.

I bought Bass A, sold it at a profit to fund buying Bass B, traded Bass B + £200 for Bass C, spent £300 having Bass C overhauled, added a new fitted hardcase, then traded Bass C for the Alembic. How much is that, then?

A week after I traded Bass C for the Alembic they brought out their new price list. Judging by that, the Alembic is now worth at least a bit more, possibly substantially more than it was valued at during the trade. What should I do if I now choose to sell the Alembic?

This is a sterile argument. If someone makes a profit, congratulate them. If someone makes a loss, commiserate with them.

Meanwhile, let's play some bass.

[JMT3781]

over the weekend, my jap fender jazz lasted a total of 8 hours... i think its the magic 500 pound mark..

everything i've sold on here, has been around for a while, until i have reduced it to 500 pounds or just under. 7 items i think! i've lost a bit of money, but have had the privilege of trying out some great gear.. which i probably could have just done in a shop lol!!


long live the marketplace!

[Machines]

I've only traded basses in the last 4 years and have gone from an 1980 Ibanez Musician bought for £250 and cleaned up, then swapped it for a Stingray and then a few others. Now i'm on an Overwater having put out no money since the Ibanez - for me trading is the best thing to do in a bad market. Of course this never allows you to build up a collection . Now where's that £1200 for a Ricky..

EDIT: Moving this to a more suitable forum .