A rather more serious HappyJackShit topic

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1021136' date='Nov 12 2010, 10:57 AM']Sadly "FT" has now become the secret code for "I don't want to openly post a price, offers by PM please". (but that's a whole other thread) [/quote]

I didnt know this! I have missed out on all sorts of stuff thinking they really only wanted a trade. Im off to FS/FT to see what I can send a pm for!

[cameltoe]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1021768' date='Nov 12 2010, 06:08 PM']Once you hit "Post New Topic", the thread you started is no longer yours, it's everybody's.

I started this topic to speculate on what might happen to prices in 2011, rather than to criticise the mechanism by how a market works. Now look what you've done.

The ENTIRE purpose of a market, any market, anywhere in the world, any time in history, is to establish the "right" price for goods.

This is not a moral judgment or a piece of pontification, it's a very simple and repeatable observation.

If I sell a bass to Tom, Dick or Harry for £500 and they turn it around for £600 next day, why should I complain? Maybe I set my price wrong. Maybe I was feeling generous. Maybe I was in a hurry. Maybe I wanted to deal with someone I already knew. Maybe they were lucky. Maybe they were smarter than me. Maybe they described it better. I could go on like this all day. So could you.

I've chosen in the past to sell basses on Basschat for less than they were worth, and I'm very well aware that others have done so too. Their reasons were their own. Mine were that I feel that this is a community, and that's how I like to behave in a community.

Again, no value judgment there. If there's one thing I'm not, it's "holier than thou".

I've never chosen to sell basses on eBay for less than they were worth, but I had no part in the decision! The eBay market determined what the "right" price was. That's how it works.

And frequently, it's impossible even to gauge how much I've "paid" for a bass. Sitting next to me is [url="http://tinypic.com/a/2i2wp/3"]http://tinypic.com/a/2i2wp/3[/url].

How much did I "pay" for it? Damned if I know.

I bought Bass A, sold it at a profit to fund buying Bass B, traded Bass B + £200 for Bass C, spent £300 having Bass C overhauled, added a new fitted hardcase, then traded Bass C for the Alembic. How much is that, then?

A week after I traded Bass C for the Alembic they brought out their new price list. Judging by that, the Alembic is now worth at least a bit more, possibly substantially more than it was valued at during the trade. What should I do if I now choose to sell the Alembic?

This is a sterile argument. If someone makes a profit, congratulate them. If someone makes a loss, commiserate with them.

Meanwhile, let's play some bass.[/quote]

+1

The joys of living in a free market.

Supply and demand dictates how much something is worth.

Just because someone paid less for something yesterday than they sold it for today, does not change the fact that the item is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

I'm constantly surprised by how many Classic Vibe Squiers I see for sale at around (and often above) the £200 mark. These can often be several months old, used and gigged. If you look around (even on google shopping) you can find them brand new for only a shade above £200. Not suggesting they're not worth it second-hand, (I love my CV P) but again, if people are willing to pay it, then what's the problem?


A while back prices here on Fenders were really high, and you could pick a Stingray up for stupid cheap. Seems to be levelling out now. Plus it often only takes one or two desperate sellers of an item to devalue those items for the next few months.

[spinynorman]

OK, 2 pages in let's try and answer Happy Jack's question.

There are some things we know will happen next year - VAT will go up, gas (the stuff you cook with, not the irrational desire to buy basses) will go up, it seems pretty inevitable more people will lose their jobs and most of those that have jobs are unlikely to be getting massive pay rises. Other things may affect us, we just don't know what will happen to the economy here or in other countries, but it's looking shakey in several places.

By itself a VAT increase could actually help the second hand market - if new prices go up, there's more room for used prices to rise and some people who would have bought new go used instead, which increases demand. But all the other bad stuff going on is likely to cancel that out.

More high end and vintage basses will come up for sale at optimistic prices. I think we can assume that the number of people buying that kind of bass to play will decline, so the market will depend on whether they're still seen to have investment potential, or represent some kind of hedge against returning inflation. But no one with any sense is going to buy an investment bass that is already at the top of its price potential, so sellers will have to lower their expectations, which will affect confidence in the market, which will reduce prices further. So until that stabilises, keep your vintage bass under the bed if you possibly can.

There are a few places, such as Australia, where the currency is relatively strong and basses for sale in Europe and the US look increasingly good value. So anyone prepared to ship abroad will find it easier to sell than those who only sell to the UK.

At the low end of the market - as JMT says, sub £500 - things could actually pick up as people realise there's nothing wrong with MIM Fenders and even Squiers, and at least they're affordable.

Basschat will become a Marxist paradise where basses are exchanged freely, regardless of monetary value.

None of this will come true.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='spinynorman' post='1022096' date='Nov 13 2010, 01:59 AM']Basschat will become a Marxist paradise where basses are exchanged freely, regardless of monetary value.[/quote]

[skankdelvar]

I think it's a bit like the housing market. The 'forced' sales have already gone through and there won't be as many bargains until confidence ratchets down another peg. Those who aren't immediately in need of cash will hold out for a price. Cash buyers will expect a bargain. Result - impasse.

The cash sale marketplace will slow down in 2011. As for trades - they may increase as they're easier to justify to 'er indoors.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1022516' date='Nov 13 2010, 03:17 PM']As for trades - they may increase as they're easier to justify to 'er indoors.[/quote]

+100

[color="#0000FF"]"How much did that cost?"[/color]

[color="#8B0000"]"Nothing dear, it was a straight swop, no cash involved."[/color]

[color="#0000FF"]"Oh ... well I suppose that's alright then."
[/color]
Bin there, dun that, wore the T-shirt so many times that the print has faded.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Alfie' post='1021189' date='Nov 12 2010, 11:32 AM']While it is not so much the case now that the forum has grown so much, I also think that in selling on Basschat there is a certain sense of helping people out to experience gear they otherwise would have no access to, by pricing slightly cheaper it helps things circulate and it all balances itself out eventually. This is why it annoys me when people try to sell used items for more than they paid for them, we can all see what the value of the item was and I would feel slightly dirty to purchase an item where the Basschat system has been abused by naked profiteering.[/quote]


This is an excellent point and it's something I really support. I have been very lucky with a few deals on this board, for instance my Alembic Epic 5 string which cost me £600! When I decided to sell it, I offered it for sale at £600. I could have easily asked double and probably taken that. However, I appreciated the fact that I had been lucky, and it's good to pass on a good deal. Someone else gets to experience a great bass and I've not lost out on it.

[lojo]

This maybe slightly off topic still, but i think when putting FT in the for sale section, you should have to state a cash value, it doesn't mean you have to accept a cash sale, but I assume that if you get a trade offer, both parties would have to set in their minds a cash value of both basses in order to establish an agreement of a straight swap or a top up of cash one way or another

I might put my jazz bass up for a trade for a precision or stingray, I cant do a deal and offer to top up a deal with a stingray if I don't first convert it to cash prices in my head first

[molan]

I've definitely noticed the advantage in trading rather than buying and I pretty much always offer to accept something in PX so long as it's either something I'd like to try out or that I know I ought to be able to sell relatively easily.

I think it probably helps that I'm happy to sell (and buy) to Europe, USA & Australia

I've also offered 'credit' and let people pay in instalments. In some cases I've hung on to the bass or amp but in others I've let people have things to keep based on a decent deposit. Not once have I had the slightest problem with this & it's definitely helped me sell some things more easily.

I've backed off from excessive bumping and trying 'too' hard to shift things recently and let a couple of basses disappear from the top listings because it's felt like the market is a bit deader than usual.

Having said that in the past 2-3 days or so I've sold one amp, bought another, taken final payment on a bass, bought another & sold 5 pedals!

I think my net gain on that lot is about £500 but, as Jack mentions above, I don't keep that close a track of every deal so I'm probably 'lying' to myself and have spent more money than I think I have, lol.

Actually, come to think of it, I've closed a deal on a US Custom Fodera in the last week as well so I'm definitely way down as whole this month!

Long live the BC barter economy that's what I say

[spinynorman]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1023493' date='Nov 14 2010, 03:19 PM']This is an excellent point and it's something I really support. I have been very lucky with a few deals on this board, for instance my Alembic Epic 5 string which cost me £600! When I decided to sell it, I offered it for sale at £600. I could have easily asked double and probably taken that. However, I appreciated the fact that I had been lucky, and it's good to pass on a good deal. Someone else gets to experience a great bass and I've not lost out on it.[/quote]

The Basschat history of that bass seems to have been a fairytale dream come true for everyone involved and it's to your credit that you did what you thought was right.

Even so, as a principle pricing under the going rate isn't entirely without consequences. One person puts up a bass at a seriously undervalued price, someone else finds their perfectly reasonable price for a similar bass undercut. And maybe they weren't so fortunate when they bought theirs and can't afford to take the hit. (Not saying that happened with the Alembic, they're scarce enough it's unlikely to be an issue).

There's also been some criticism of people buying on here and selling on eBay. Well, a lot of people say they sell on here because they don't like the fees and the risk on eBay, so they'll take a lower price. If someone else is prepared to take the risk and pay the fees, seems fair enough that they get a better price. I wouldn't condone anyone making a business out of it, I agree it would generally be fairer to at least offer it here first and I wouldn't want something I'd sold to appear on the bay two days later, but if people are sensible I can't see the problem.

Of course, any proceeds on selling gear should go back into the Basschat economy. Spending it on women (or men) and booze would be unthinkable.

Edited November 16, 2010 by spinynorman