Gibson Les Paul Bass nut replacement problem

[DRussell21]

Hello everyone!

This is my first post so I do apologise if this is the wrong place.

Basically i've had a problem with some serious fret buzz on the first 5 frets the last couple of months.

After trying different methods to erase it i.e higher gauges, adjusting the truss-rod both ways and raising the bridge, I think I might of found the reason for the constant struggle.

I've found that the nut on my Gibson (http://www.gak.co.uk/en/gibson-les-paul-standard-bass-limited-stocks-heritage-cherry-sunburst/33831) has been slightly filed down by the previous owner.

Bugger, Bugger, Bugger. What a bugger.

So i've done quite a lot of research and the only nut i can find is here:

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GENUINE-EPIPHONE-BASS-GUITAR-TOP-NUT-38mm-x-6mm-_W0QQitemZ370374195550QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=170120048866&rvr_id=170120048866&cguid=5c6b784b12c0a0aad445d5c5fffdc513"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GENUINE-EPIPHONE-BAS...445d5c5fffdc513[/url]

As you can see in the nut height and width are slightly different.

So, my question is: shall I go ahead and pay for this Epiphone nut although it might not fit properly, or shall i pay for a full service etc with a professional to go over it to see if they can do anything?

I'm desperate to sort this so any advice or anything would be great thanks!!!

Dan

[icastle]

[quote name='DRussell21' post='1033416' date='Nov 22 2010, 11:59 PM']Hello everyone!

This is my first post so I do apologise if this is the wrong place.

Basically i've had a problem with some serious fret buzz on the first 5 frets the last couple of months.

After trying different methods to erase it i.e higher gauges, adjusting the truss-rod both ways and raising the bridge, I think I might of found the reason for the constant struggle.

I've found that the nut on my Gibson (http://www.gak.co.uk/en/gibson-les-paul-standard-bass-limited-stocks-heritage-cherry-sunburst/33831) has been slightly filed down by the previous owner.

Bugger, Bugger, Bugger. What a bugger.

So i've done quite a lot of research and the only nut i can find is here:

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GENUINE-EPIPHONE-BASS-GUITAR-TOP-NUT-38mm-x-6mm-_W0QQitemZ370374195550QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=170120048866&rvr_id=170120048866&cguid=5c6b784b12c0a0aad445d5c5fffdc513"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GENUINE-EPIPHONE-BAS...445d5c5fffdc513[/url]

As you can see in the nut height and width are slightly different.

So, my question is: shall I go ahead and pay for this Epiphone nut although it might not fit properly, or shall i pay for a full service etc with a professional to go over it to see if they can do anything?

I'm desperate to sort this so any advice or anything would be great thanks!!!

Dan[/quote]


Sticking any old nut onto an expensive instrument like this is going to seriously devalue it in the future if you want to sell it/trade it.
Am I correct in my understanding that the instrument used to play ok but this fret buzz has just recently appeared?

[neepheid]

Try raising the nut by putting a strip of wood veneer underneath it. That should raise it by approx 0.6mm.

[XylemBassGuitar]

Hey Dan,

Keep in mind that the nut will only affect the buzzing on the [i]open[/i] strings. As soon as you press down on a fret, the nut is taken out of the equation. So, raising the nut would probably help with any open string buzzing, but the 1st - 5th frets will probably still buzz. I do agree with neepheid's suggestion for raising the nut though, especially if it buzzes on the open strings. If it doesn't buzz on the open strings I would forgo adjusting the nut.

Have you checked the relief and action heights? We could probably help diagnose the problem a little better if we knew how much relief the neck had and how high the action was at about the 12th fret.

My apologies if you already know how to measure these (not trying to be presumptuous at all here):

Get a ruler with either millimeter or 1/32 inch divisions (or better yet, a set of feeler gauges).

Relief: Put a capo on the first fret and press down the low E string at the 17th fret, now measure the distance between the 7th fret and the bottom of the string (you can also just have someone hold down the string at the 1st fret if you don't have a capo). [i]Usually[/i], you'll want about 0.28 millimeters of relief. Much less and that could be the cause of the buzz.

Action: Just measure the distance from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string without pressing anything down.

Many times if the first five frets are buzzing for all 6 strings it means that the guitar has too little relief, but it is tough to diagnose a guitar without seeing it. Let us know the measurements and we can probably help a bit more.

Alternatively, just as you had mentioned, it is always good to take it to a good luthier or tech so they can see the full guitar and really find out what is going on.

-Anthony

Edited November 23, 2010 by XylemBassGuitar

[DRussell21]

Wow!!!


Didn't expect a response so quick!!!


Thank you all for your time and help. It's truly helped me a lot.

I've tried something else since I posted it and it has helped me understand the problem better with collaboration with your suggestions.

What i've done is put some nut-shaped thin card on top of the nut and tightened the strings till in standard tuning. It has now raised the nut by around 20 mill and most of the fret buzz has gone apart from a slightly noticeable open D. So after adding another 10 mill to the D string it appears to be fine.

The trouble is what do i do now?


I'll answer your questions too and see if that helps with figuring out what to do next!

@icastle

To be honest i did think about the option of selling it so someone else can have the problem (how nice of me hey!) But I just can't. I love it too much. It's such a diverse bass it suits anything i want to play at the end of the day.

I've always had a slight problem since i sorted the bass to my preference of neck relief, action and changed to my choice of strings. When i brought the bass it had very high action and a massive bow in the neck. I can only assume the guy who had it before me didn't know how to do these things and ended up filling down the nut instead?


@neepheld

The idea of using wood veneer might work!! very interested in this.

The only problem i have is that if the D string is 10 mill different to the rest of the strings it might play differently still with the veneer on?

Is there a specific method of taking off the nut, putting veneer underneath it, glueing etc?

@XylemBassGuitar

Without sounding rude, I noticed that you said about the six strings and i was wondering if that was a mistake or are your measurements meant for electric guitars?

If it was a mistake then the relief with the added card to my nut gives a reading of around 0.3 mill. Without the added card it reads 0.25. So is it safe to say there's nothing drastically wrong with my relief?

The action is 0.4 on my E string and 0.45 on my G.







Once again, i thank you all for your help and its seriously appreciated


Dan

[icastle]

If you are DIY inclined (and patient!) you can actually buy nut "blanks" and carve yourself a new one that fits exactly.
Alternatively any good luthier will be able to get a factory replacement or carve an identical one plus setup your bass and give it a once over.

[neepheid]

[quote name='DRussell21' post='1040610' date='Nov 28 2010, 11:34 PM']The idea of using wood veneer might work!! very interested in this.

The only problem i have is that if the D string is 10 mill different to the rest of the strings it might play differently still with the veneer on?

Is there a specific method of taking off the nut, putting veneer underneath it, glueing etc?[/quote]

Do remember that ultimately this is a bodge. If this instrument is valuable to you then don't skimp - take it to someone who knows what they're doing and they'll sort out the existing nut if they can and make a new nut from a blank if they can't.

The veneer is only going to help if all the strings are too low, the strip of veneer will raise everything by a uniform 0.6mm. If you have a string which is wildly different to the others then the only sensible option is to get a replacement. If you can't get a suitable direct replacement then get one made specially.

Good pics and stuff about nut removal:

[url="http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/acoustic-guitar/nut.php"]http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/...-guitar/nut.php[/url]
[url="http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/refret.html"]http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/refret.html[/url]

Before making any permanent changes, you can do a dry run - put the sliver of veneer in the channel where the nut was, set the nut on top then pop the strings back on. Strings under tension will hold it down temporarily while you check things out. If all is well, a small quantity of wood glue between the channel and the veneer and a small amount between the veneer and the nut should keep things in place. Again, stringing and tuning up should provide enough clamping pressure to keep everything together while the glue dries. Remember to wipe off any excess glue which might squeeze out right away with a damp cloth.

As I said above this is a bodge.

[XylemBassGuitar]

[quote name='DRussell21' post='1040610' date='Nov 28 2010, 04:34 PM']@XylemBassGuitar

Without sounding rude, I noticed that you said about the six strings and i was wondering if that was a mistake or are your measurements meant for electric guitars?

If it was a mistake then the relief with the added card to my nut gives a reading of around 0.3 mill. Without the added card it reads 0.25. So is it safe to say there's nothing drastically wrong with my relief?

The action is 0.4 on my E string and 0.45 on my G.[/quote]

Woops, yep my bad. I did mean 4 strings, not 6, but the measurements are meant for bass and not guitar. I work on both basses [i]and[/i] guitars so much that sometimes I get things mixed up. Sorry for the confusion!

The relief on the neck does sound like it's pretty good, it is fairly safe to say that there is nothing wrong with the relief itself.

When you say that the action is 0.4 on the E and 0.45 on the G, do you mean centimeters? (sorry, I'm from the States, this base 10 measurement system is difficult for us Yanks ) If you do mean centimeters, that's pretty high action (if not pardon, the mistake). You might still consider taking the beast to a good tech or luthier for a setup, they could probably work everything out and bring the action down at least a little.

It's very interesting that you were able to solve the buzzing problem on 5 frets by raising the nut. That makes me wonder, can you hear the buzz through an amp or just from the strings themselves? It is possible that the bass has "backbuzz" where the portion of the string [i]behind[/i] the fret you are pressing is what buzzes, instead of the string length in front of the pressed fret. Though this [i]can[/i] sometimes be heard through the amp (it is rare), backbuzz is usually only heard from the strings themselves.

Beyond that, if raising the nut fixes the problem and you're happy with that as a solution (and you've heeded neepheid's warnings about the method of fixing the nut) I'd say stick with it!