Changing pre-amps

[ThomBassmonkey]

I know a lot of people change pre-amps in basses, I've thought about it in the past (particularly with my old BTB which sounds a lot flatter than most basses) but I wondered how you know which pre-amp is the best suited to your bass and what you want to achieve, when a good pre-amp costs about £200, I can't imagine people experiment to see what suits what. I also can't imagine it being easy to find the same bass/pre-amp combination that people want to try out.

So how do people know what pre-amp to pick?

[bubinga5]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1034570' date='Nov 23 2010, 11:12 PM']I know a lot of people change pre-amps in basses, I've thought about it in the past (particularly with my old BTB which sounds a lot flatter than most basses) but I wondered how you know which pre-amp is the best suited to your bass and what you want to achieve, when a good pre-amp costs about £200, I can't imagine people experiment to see what suits what. I also can't imagine it being easy to find the same bass/pre-amp combination that people want to try out.

So how do people know what pre-amp to pick?[/quote]Thom the old Q ive been searching for... straight answer...you cant...there are too many variables...the best thing to do is to take it to a luthier,, look up a tone or tones your after on you tube/whatever and im sure he could get there...Ask J Shuker he has given me some great conclusions through email to what i want to get to..

ive had J east, Glock, Bart, Aguilar, Fender, each sounded great in the basses ive had, but might not sound good in a bass that YOU, and i mean YOU own and the sound you want to her..your not going to get a bad tone with most of these as well as others but its a difficult thing to know...just like pickups.... like i said its too subjuective and there are to many variables..

a luthier is your wise manll... me personally from the preamp and pickups i had in a lakland would be Glockeklang and Nordstrand fat stacks...i know you werent asking about pickups but they both sounded immense.. if not an Aguilar OBP3 OBP2 or OBP1 depending what eq you want...

Edited November 23, 2010 by bubinga5

[icastle]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1034570' date='Nov 23 2010, 11:12 PM']I know a lot of people change pre-amps in basses, I've thought about it in the past (particularly with my old BTB which sounds a lot flatter than most basses) but I wondered how you know which pre-amp is the best suited to your bass and what you want to achieve, when a good pre-amp costs about £200, I can't imagine people experiment to see what suits what. I also can't imagine it being easy to find the same bass/pre-amp combination that people want to try out.

So how do people know what pre-amp to pick?[/quote]

I think a lot of it is word of mouth and recommendations from people who have fitted them/had them fitted or have them as standard factory issue on their basses.
A lot of it is by a process of elimination (that one is only a two band and I have three holes to fit, that one is specifically designed for passive pups and I have active, that one is designed to work with fretless and I want fretted...) and research into those that are left.

[zero9]

You could try 'outboard' pre-amps. They're easier to change...

[ThomBassmonkey]

So in the same way that Jazz basses, Warwicks, Stingrays etc etc all have their own distinctive sounds, yet different depending on model, brand, woods etc, do pre-amps have similar distintive characteristics (obviously varying depending on which bass they're put in?)

e.g. Is there a certain pre-amp that sounds more hi-fi than others, another that's more growly etc?

[bubinga5]

[quote name='zero9' post='1034582' date='Nov 23 2010, 11:28 PM']You could try 'outboard' pre-amps. They're easier to change...[/quote]
just as expensive though if its not for you..i think the most comprehensive is a John East...i had a Deluxe in a Sei.. any tone you want with great quality...took me a while to get know.....depends on your ear of course...did your bass have a passive switch..do you like the tone of your bass naturally?...then choose a preamp that is very transparent...(please chime in BC'ers) or do you want to colour the tone more?.. a great preamp i had in my old jazz was a Creation Audio Redeemer circuit... dont let the fact you aint heard of it put you off, it was superb in my jazz..really punchy, but every passive frequency was amplified.... apart from that ive heard an Audere is a great unit...

[icastle]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1034584' date='Nov 23 2010, 11:30 PM']So in the same way that Jazz basses, Warwicks, Stingrays etc etc all have their own distinctive sounds, yet different depending on model, brand, woods etc, do pre-amps have similar distintive characteristics (obviously varying depending on which bass they're put in?)

e.g. Is there a certain pre-amp that sounds more hi-fi than others, another that's more growly etc?[/quote]


Up to a point yes.
There are going to be limitations though - you'd never be able to get a true MM sound out of an £89 PB copy

[zero9]

It really depends what tone you're looking to get out of your bass. If you're looking for simplicity and just want to boost the natural character of your bass, then a Sadowsky might be your bag. It might be worth trying different basses (in shops or by going along to a bass bash or something) with particular pre-amp / pup combinations to find out what sound you like, before forking out.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1034584' date='Nov 23 2010, 11:30 PM']So in the same way that Jazz basses, Warwicks, Stingrays etc etc all have their own distinctive sounds, yet different depending on model, brand, woods etc, do pre-amps have similar distintive characteristics (obviously varying depending on which bass they're put in?)

e.g. Is there a certain pre-amp that sounds more hi-fi than others, another that's more growly etc?[/quote]Yes and no.. different preamps act differently.... a transparent pre...lets you hear the natural sounds of a bass but just amplifies every frequency, or preamps that color the tone of your bass and give the bass the tone of the preamp..

or everything in between... the nuances are hard to hear but they are there..not really anything to bother about unless it bothers you... after time the more basses you play it may though...this is splitting hairs though...a good preamp like an aguilar im sure you will love... i love the aguilar 3 band..its a formidible preamp and will sound very good in you BTB...

keep looking at reviews on talk bass keep asking q's, look on harmony centrals reviews... just like learning the bass itself, it takes time and money to learn what you like tonally... best to spend as little money getting to your conclusion though..thats when asking a researchung comes in..

Edited November 23, 2010 by bubinga5

[zero9]

Before deciding on what pre-amp to use, I did exactly that. Looked at various reviews on the web and advice on Basschat.

By chance I heard a guy play his bass through a Sadowsky outboard pre-amp (luckily he used my rig at the time). I was blown away. I was lucky to find a SH Sadowsky DI on Basschat and love it. Didn't have to carve the old P up to fit it either!

[bubinga5]

[quote name='zero9' post='1034611' date='Nov 23 2010, 11:57 PM']Before deciding on what pre-amp to use, I did exactly that. Looked at various reviews on the web and advice on Basschat.

By chance I heard a guy play his bass through a Sadowsky outboard pre-amp (luckily he used my rig at the time). I was blown away. I was lucky to find a SH Sadowsky DI on Basschat and love it. Didn't have to carve the old P up to fit it either![/quote]Zero 9 ive had a Sadowsky but not had the Outboard..is it that good. didnt get to know the onboard that well.... thinking about getting one for my Modulus...is it a very comprehensive preamp.?

i do like the thought of having an onboard preamp as it comes part of the bass itself..

like Thom said its impossible to tell in your own context... i got a graphite Modulus jazz, so its even more tricky..

Edited November 24, 2010 by bubinga5

[Lfalex v1.1]

Your choice may well be governed (at least in part) by what features you need the pre to have;
9/18v electrics
Number of bands
Sweepable mid-Frequency
Slap pre-shapes
Passive bypass
Trim pots / Dip switches (usually inside the cavity)
and so on...

[ThomBassmonkey]

Well I'm not looking to get a new pre-amp for my BTB, it's just the thought of that that sparked me off, I'm happy with my Warwick and although I'm looking for a new bass, whatever I end up with will be a significant upgrade from my BTB. I've just had a drink and get a mixture of curious and hypothetical after a bit. I only keep the BTB for sentimental value and in case I ever need a backup for a period (I don't even take it to gigs any more) but I'm after another bass anyway so I doubt it'll ever get used.

So rather than the basses, maybe amps is a better comparison. There's the transparent sounding pre-amps like the Edens and the coloured pres like the GKs?

If one was to try out the outboard pres, wouldn't the onboard pres colour the sound, making the test invalid anyway?

[bubinga5]

I've just had a drink and get a mixture of curious and hypothetical after a bit. QUOTE>>>

ha! well there is nothing wrong with that..its a forum after all... no the out board will be the same but just not in the bass Thom.. well a bass amp is gonna cost you more for a start.... if the bass is not the prob bro, what Q are you asking...?

do you want to get rid of the Ibanez.... what amp are you running? thats a different question.. thats post eq, pressuming its an active bass..

[ThomBassmonkey]

haha, just wanted to explain I'm not actually starting to think about what to upgrade.

Well if you use an outboard pre-amp, won't you still be using the same on-board pre? So the onboard pre will be affecting the sound before it gets to the outboard, hence "tainting" the sound of the outboard?

There's no way I'm changing the sound of my amp, I love my GK rig (as per my signature), I was just using it as an analogy so the Eden would relate to the Sadowsky (judging from what Zero9 hinted at about them sounding transparent earlier on this thread) for example.

I'm just into keeping a unique sound, but within what I think sounds good. I love the sound of my Warwick into my GK and really doubt that I will get a "better" sound using other pres or amps (though I'm looking for a nice MM/MM pup bass for a "different" sound), but I'm purely curious at the moment as per my initial question, it boggles me that people just have to guess what sounds best when they're spending so much money on pre's.

[bubinga5]

You wouldnt really use an out board preamp if your using an on board also... 2 different pre signals going into the amp.. this is up to your ear and you wallet, but thats a hell of alot of EQ.. way to much

at the end of the day your last signal being the amp (being your second amp/eq) has some speakers attached.. why have a third in between the pre and the amp....

most guys who want an out board pre have a passive bass...and want an outboard preamp that gives them the flexibility of the pre without having to route the body of a passive bass for electronics.. etc

or for an on board, some people want a more flexible, or finger touch to an amp/eqd in there bass, so they dont have to go to the bother of going to there head/amp to tweak the EQ that they can do from there bass...or some may think that there preamp in there bass gives them tones that there amp cant do..depends on the bass preamp, or the amp itself..

for example i want a 3 band preamp with a mid that gives me more than my aguilar can give me...its all preference..

others are much more experienced and can word this better..

Edited November 24, 2010 by bubinga5

[mcnach]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='1034664' date='Nov 24 2010, 01:48 AM']You wouldnt really use an out board preamp if your using an on board also... 2 different pre signals going into the amp.. this is up to your ear and you wallet, but thats a hell of alot of EQ.. way to much

at the end of the day your last signal being the amp (being your second amp/eq) has some speakers attached.. why have a third in between the pre and the amp....

most guys who want an out board pre have a passive bass...and want an outboard preamp that gives them the flexibility of the pre without having to route the body of a passive bass for electronics.. etc

or for an on board, some people want a more flexible, or finger touch to an amp/eqd in there bass, so they dont have to go to the bother of going to there head/amp to tweak the EQ that they can do from there bass...or some may think that there preamp in there bass gives them tones that there amp cant do..depends on the bass preamp, or the amp itself..

for example i want a 3 band preamp with a mid that gives me more than my aguilar can give me...its all preference..

others are much more experienced and can word this better..[/quote]


But your amp will have a preamp too, so there you have it: you're using two preamps when playing an active bass. Is that too much EQ? The answer is NO. You do have a better chance at selecting a ridiculous EQ, for instance boosting lows way beyond where it's musical and getting a horrible farty noise. But you're using your ears when changing the EQ, so hopefully we all manage to work it out just fine.

The thing about a preamp is... they all work in a slightly different way. Some are designed to work in such a way that *you* find the sound *you* are after, with *your* equipment, much more easily.
As different people have different tonal goals and use different gear then there's not one single preamp, onboard or outboard that will work for everyone.
Playing a bass with an onboard preamp, into an outboard preamp, into the preamp of your combo, for instance, *can* work just fine. It seems a little longwinded, but hey, whatever works for you, soundwise.

One thing that seems basic, but only recently I have come to truly appreciate is: if you start with a source that gets you closest to the sound you want, your life will be made much easier and preamps will matter a little less.

If you find a bass, that passively (or flat EQ if active and the preamp cannot be bypassed) sounds almost right... then that's the ideal bass to have. Hopefuly you'll get along with its idiosincrasies, neck etc...
Although this made sense to me long ago, I only realised it fully when I got my MM Stingray. That was a bass that sounds just the way I want it with very little extra processing.
Mine is a 2EQ, and I replaced the preamp with a John East because I wanted to retain the 2EQ flavour preamp, but add some control over the mids with its sweepable freq control. In addition, it has a bypass switch.
I love that preamp, but... I found that I generally find my sound by setting the amp controls flat, then teh preamp flat, and adjusting *a bit* the onboard preamp. When playing the bass passively I find that it's already almost perfect in almost every occasion. I didn't find that with any other bass, or not as markedly at any rate.

[bubinga5]

Playing a bass with an onboard preamp, into an outboard preamp, into the preamp of your combo, for instance, *can* work just fine. It seems a little longwinded, but hey, whatever works for you, soundwise.


yeah it would work but why on earth would you want two preamps going into your amp??????

[JTUK]

Sounds like you are chasing something and for me, that is the wrong place to start.

You need a good bass that works in passive mode and then any pre will just enhance the inherrent properties you already like.
Of course, some pres have extreme tone shaping capabilities as do amps, but do you really want this colour 90% of the time.

I am between playing a passive sound to start with and then switch in active if need be and try to engage the pre to boost that a tad...
Most pres are bass boost only AFAIK,.......certainly Sadowskyy and Retros.. it is the middle and treble that have cut and sweeps but I am a great believe in natural sound combinations of the way your bass is put together..

If the bass sound poor in passive mode, then you are enhancing a poor position with a pre , IME. You can change the word poor, for unsuitable if you like...it leads to the same chase.

I'd be looking for a new bass..as that is the real way to change things

[thisnameistaken]

+1

Given that most amps have tonnes of EQ options in their preamps, I don't get why people bother trying limited circuits in their basses.

IMO if you're going to use an active bass, what you really want is a good transparent line driver in there with maybe a couple of basic options (you might want to cut treble or boost mids from your guitar, fair enough) but do the lion's share of EQing outboard where you have room for tonnes of knobs and sliders and you don't have to sling the lot over your shoulder for hours at a time.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1035211' date='Nov 24 2010, 04:02 PM']Given that most amps have tonnes of EQ options in their preamps, I don't get why people bother trying limited circuits in their basses.

IMO if you're going to use an active bass, what you really want is a good transparent line driver in there with maybe a couple of basic options (you might want to cut treble or boost mids from your guitar, fair enough) but do the lion's share of EQing outboard where you have room for tonnes of knobs and sliders and you don't have to sling the lot over your shoulder for hours at a time.[/quote]
+1 again...

For me if you're going to have an on-board pre-amp it makes most sense if it does something your backline amp doesn't such as a filter-based tone circuit or separate EQ controls for each pickup.

I see little point in trying to duplicate what should be on the backline amp where it can be done without the constraints of having to fit the circuit and the battery into the control cavity of a bass - plus having to have the electronics battery powered.

I too would like to see a more simple line-drive type of circuit for on-board use with no EQ just effective, smooth volume and pickup balance controls.

If you need anything more there's probably something fundamentally wrong with either the basic sound of the bass or elsewhere in your signal chain.

[RichF]

Totally agree with those recommending starting with the best pure (passive) tone possible then making an assessment of what dimensions you want to (de)emphasise. I don't have a massively sophisticated "ear" so I started with bass tones equivalent to "robust new world red" in the wine tasting world. For me those tones were "jazz growl", "Warwick growl" and "precision punch" (or whatever). I get the precision tone pretty much straight off but prefer active so got some EMGs with built in preamp wired to original circuit. On the Warwick, the stock 3 band active preamp does all I need. The Jazz was a bit different cause I wanted more flexibility and control esp over mids so I looked for a replacement preamp with what I needed and went with reputation and experience (John East). If I didn't have to use so many different amps etc in so many different rooms I might have preferred to depend on outboard and amp eq. Don't quite understand the desire always to upgrade preamps pretty much whatever. I have played some cheap basses with decent basic tone that needed nothing changed and some £1000+ basses that were ruined by unnecessary electronics.

[mcnach]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='1035074' date='Nov 24 2010, 01:39 PM']Playing a bass with an onboard preamp, into an outboard preamp, into the preamp of your combo, for instance, *can* work just fine. It seems a little longwinded, but hey, whatever works for you, soundwise.


yeah it would work but why on earth would you want two preamps going into your amp??????[/quote]


I'll spell it out again ;-)

different preamps give you different tonal options, and you may find one particular preamp makes it easier for *you* to find the sound *you* are after.
That's why you have people manufacturing preamps, out or onboard.

It's like when my girlfriend asks "why would you need 6 basses?"

[icastle]

[quote name='mcnach' post='1035923' date='Nov 25 2010, 09:25 AM']It's like when my girlfriend asks "why would you need 6 basses?" [/quote]

"Because I like to take at least one day off a week and the seventh one would just be a waste?"

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='1035074' date='Nov 24 2010, 01:39 PM']Playing a bass with an onboard preamp, into an outboard preamp, into the preamp of your combo, for instance, *can* work just fine. It seems a little longwinded, but hey, whatever works for you, soundwise.


yeah it would work but why on earth would you want two preamps going into your amp??????[/quote]

I've done it, ultimate in tone shaping.
The bass preamp is set at 40hz on the low side, the outboards low is set at 50hz and then the amps low is set at 40hz, and if it's a TC Classic/RH 450 the amps low is shelved as well. So for those who like to eq change it up all over the place it makes for something versatile. Also some preamps can colour the sound.

Right now I'm happy, I have my amp set to get a reasonably flat tone through the cab, I then EQ on the bass' onboard preamp and how I play.