Thunderbird - Tokai vs Gibson

[jonnyfastfingers]

Hey up guys, need a bit of advice please.

I currently have a Tokai Thunderbird (in white ) which I bought new about a year ago. I love it, it suits the type of stuff I play perfectly. Works a treat with my newly acquired VBA400 and matching 2x15 marshall cab. I even prefer the Tokai over the Rick, a Deluxe USA Precision and original Stingray I've owned previously.

When I bought it I made a conscious decision to buy Tokai over Epiphone from the reviews I read.

Now I am toying with the idea of upgrading it to a Gibson, but I don't know if it's worth it. I am quite happy with the build quailty and feel of the Tokai, just wondered if the Gibson with it's more expensive pick-ups and higher-quality woods would sound that much better?

[Lozz196]

The thing that will make the most difference is if the Tokai is made of alder, or basswood. The Gibson is made of mahogany.

I A/Bd two Epihone T-Birds, a standard, and the Gothic, and the tone from the Gothic, which was made of mahogany, was much deeper than that of the alder-made standard.

Whether or not deeper is better, well that is a decision for the user.

[BigRedX]

From a construction, wood and electronics PoV the Tokai, Epiphone, and Gibson Thunderbirds are 3 completely different basses which just happen to share a similar body shape.

If you already like the feel and sound of one there is no guarantee that you'll like any of the others better. The only way to know for sure is to try one.

[Gust0o]

Red is totally correct.

[Soloshchenko]

My advice is stick to your Tokai. Ask yourself why you are upgrading? Given you seem really happy with the sound you are getting now, just because it says Gibson doesn't mean it's going to be an improvement for you.

The Tokais look the bollocks to me and looking at pics those shape Pick Ups could easily be swapped forsomething high end.

[jonnyfastfingers]

[quote name='Soloshchenko' post='1035439' date='Nov 24 2010, 06:43 PM']My advice is stick to your Tokai. Ask yourself why you are upgrading? Given you seem really happy with the sound you are getting now, just because it says Gibson doesn't mean it's going to be an improvement for you.

The Tokais look the bollocks to me and looking at pics those shape Pick Ups could easily be swapped forsomething high end.[/quote]

Any recommendations for pick-up upgrades?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='jonnyfastfingers' post='1035600' date='Nov 24 2010, 09:00 PM']Any recommendations for pick-up upgrades?[/quote]
By all accounts the best pickups you can get for a Thunderbird are the [url="http://www.mikelull.com/t%20bass%20parts.htm"]Mike Lull T-Bass ones[/url].

[Delberthot]

I'm liking the EMG HZs in my Epiphone. No room in there for a battery or anything extra, don;t know what the Tokai is like.

I bought the Goth Thunderbird simply because I love the sound of a mahogany body, very dark and growly, just so happens to be what the Gibbys are made from.

Too many things put me off getting a Gibson - the strap button position behind the neck isn't the best if you have a gut as it tends to push the bass away at a funny angle and from what I've heard recently, the finish on the Epiphones is way superior to what is coming out of the Gibson factory with runny finishes

Edited November 25, 2010 by Delberthot

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

Now that I've sold a few basses including my beautiful, but far too heavy metal looking Alpine White Epiphone Thunderbird, I have some funds which are very likely to go on an Epiphone Thunderbird Pro-V in the natural oil finish.

[jonnyfastfingers]

Thanks for the advice, those lull pickups are too expensive, I may as well just buy a Gibson.

Are there any others that would improve my guitar?

[3below]

Glad to hear Tokai is going well with VBA and 7400 cab. My back is better as well .

Enjoy

[ThomBassmonkey]

I'd pick Tokai over a Gibbo anyway (just personal preference). Tokais are far cheaper for instruments that aren't really any inferior to the well made Gibsons, and that's if you get a well made Gibson, which is very hit and miss from what I've heard recently.

I have a Love Rock (LP copy) and it's simply awesome. I got it for a steal too as I bought it from the shop I teach at sometimes and it was B stock (very slight smudge on the paint near the neck IIRC, certainly a smaller mark than the screw holes from me taking the scratchplate off).

[BigRedX]

Unfortunately the days of Tokai instruments being at least as good if not better than the "real thing" are mostly gone.

The majority of the MIJ output seems to be concentrated on developing a more original take on guitars and basses and less on the "replica" models.

I would class the current Tokai Thunderbird (which is not MIJ) as a copy (looks roughly like the Gibson it is based on but differs in several important construction and hardware areas) rather than a replica (built to match as closely as possible the best examples of instruments from the 'classic' years).

Other than the overall shape it has little in common with the Gibson bass that it is based on and certainly isn't of the standard of the 80s instruments that Tokai have built their reputation on.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I can't really agree with that, the shop I sometimes teach at stocks Tokais and we've never had an instrument from them that's been less than stunning for the money. They've been incredibly consistent in quality and feel. Admittedly that's the guitars (the shop's in the process of moving at the moment, they'll be getting some basses in when they're settled) but there's definitely no arguing with their QC. My MIJ is a stunning instrument with a briliant finish and it plays amazingly, one of the best LP style guitars I've played. It's still fully stock too (apart from minus pickguard now) and the RRP is a good £500 less than the cheapest Gibson LPs.

By comparison, we saw a chinese £200 LP 50th copy ann guitar (complete with fully marked up Gibson case, even a spare "Gibson" set of strings in the case) go through a while ago. It was a great copy to be fair (even down to not having routing on the back, which that specific Gibbo model doesn't) and the guy who bought it owns two "real" Black Beautys. He said the £200 copy out-played both of them, which cost over 10x the price each.

[BigRedX]

Have you played a Tokai Thunderbird?

Other than the basic outline almost nothing is the same as the classic 60s and 70s Gibson instruments. The body and neck woods are different, the construction is different, the hardware and pickups are different.

It's a nice instrument for the money, but it doesn't feel or sound like a classic Gibson Thunderbird and on closer inspection it doesn't look like one either.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I haven't played any of the basses and I'm not saying that they're exactly like the Gibson but better, I'm saying that in my experience they're built to a consistently high quality (unlike the Gibsons) for significantly less money. Obviously if you're after *that* combination of woods and electrics that the Gibsons offer, then you should go for a Gibson. I'm completely of the mind that if something plays well and sounds good (even if it's not perfect to your tastes) it can probably be tailored using EQs to fit with what you're doing.

Unfortunately (and annoyingly for me) the shop doesn't stock many basses at the moment, that should all change soon though and I'll be able to get my mitts on some of the Tokais to try out first hand (I think we're just going for a Jazzsound and EB0 style from Tokai to begin with).

[BigRedX]

I do like the MIJ Tokais - I own a Talbo Bass and a Talbo Jr guitar, and I have a friend who has a couple of very tasty 80s strat replicas.

However these days a large proportion of the Tokai instruments being imported by the official UK distributor, aren't the desirable MIJ models but cheaper MIK (and maybe even MIC). These cheaper models are still fine instruments in their own right and as you say terrific value for money, but they are not really in the same league as the original 80s instruments and the current MIJ models.

For me the whole point of owning a non-original Tokai, is that you are going to get as close to the classic instrument that it is modelled on as possible in all aspects of wood choices, construction, hardware and electronics, and in many cases it will be a superior instrument.

The problem as I see it is that at the moment none of the non-original basses fall into this category. They all seem to be at best MIK, and the two Gibson-based models differ in several important aspects from the instruments they are based on. The EB3-style bass does look is though it's closer to the Gibson, but still the electronics are significantly different.

Normally I wouldn't really worry about this, but because Tokai have built their reputation on replicating classic American guitars and basses, it does bother me that people automatically assume that all instruments bearing the Tokai name are going to be of this original high standard, whereas for many of the models being imported into the UK (and especially the basses) this is clearly not the case.

So to get back to the original point of this thread. Because the Tokai Thunderbird has so little in common with the Gibson models (either the classic 60s and 70s or the more modern version) there is no guarantee that for the OP the Gibson will be an improvement. It may in reality be not so good depending on what the OP actually wants from the bass.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='jonnyfastfingers' post='1038199' date='Nov 26 2010, 07:43 PM']Thanks for the advice, those lull pickups are too expensive, I may as well just buy a Gibson.

Are there any others that would improve my guitar?[/quote]
The Lull T-Bass pickups are based on the original 60s Thunderbird pickup. The current Gibson Thunderbirds have different pickups in them.

In the end it's down to what you personally like.

[bassmachine2112]

here,s one for you-epiphone t-bird pro 4,good finish and very nice in black.they have an active circuit which gives a nice array of useable sounds.It has a maple sandwich through neck which allays the fears of the mahogony necked gibsons which can fall off at the joint if you bang it off something.
They are a different animal to the other epiphones,try one out nothing to lose.

[jonnyfastfingers]

[quote name='bassmachine2112' post='1038603' date='Nov 27 2010, 09:58 AM']here,s one for you-epiphone t-bird pro 4,good finish and very nice in black.they have an active circuit which gives a nice array of useable sounds.It has a maple sandwich through neck which allays the fears of the mahogony necked gibsons which can fall off at the joint if you bang it off something.
They are a different animal to the other epiphones,try one out nothing to lose.[/quote]

I like the passive tone, the Thunderbird is like a Harley Davidson, full of growl and intent. For me using an active circuit would change the beast in to something else completely.

[jonnyfastfingers]

[quote name='3below' post='1038249' date='Nov 26 2010, 08:33 PM']Glad to hear Tokai is going well with VBA and 7400 cab. My back is better as well .

Enjoy[/quote]

Glad to hear your back is better Francis!

Have you sorted a replacement amp yet?

Further to your thoughts on upgrading the speakers on the Marshall cab, I have done a little research on the matter.

There is a line of thought that indicates unless you are playing stadiums or outdoor venues sometimes it is better to use less efficient speakers. Especially with a 400 watt valve amp playing medium sized indoor venues The output of the valves is absorbed less efficiently and therefore you work the valves without making peoples ears bleed. What do you think?

[amnesia]

To the OP - have you found somewhere with a Gibson T'bird actually in stock? I don't mean showing on a website as available to order but hanging in a wall in a shop? The reason I ask is that I have one on order and the shop doesn't know when it is coming in. I asked another Gibson dealer (Dawsons in Manchester) and they said delivery is 'whenever'.


[quote name='bassmachine2112' post='1038603' date='Nov 27 2010, 09:58 AM']...fears of the mahogony necked gibsons which can fall off at the joint if you bang it off something.[/quote]

Is this a real issue or an internet anicdote based on no evidence?

Edited November 28, 2010 by amnesia

[BigRedX]

Last time I was in Fuzz in Nottingham they had at least 1 Gibson Thunderbird in stock.

The fragile Gibson Mahogany neck is unfortunately a fact of life. It's a pity because if you like the sound of Thunderbird basses the mahogany neck is major factor to it, and why the Epiphone and Tokai basses don't really sound the same as the Gibson. The longer and older the neck the more likely it is to have a break in it. Always look carefully at the back of the neck/headstock on second hand Gibson Thunderbirds and EB basses.

I'd be reluctant to buy one with a repair unless I had documented evidence that it had been done by someone I considered reputable.