My double bass journey

[Mike]

Hi all

I thought it might be interesting to chronicle my journey into the murky world of double bass. I am primarily an electric player who plays corporate/wedding functions, theatre shows (not west end (yet) but things like Les Mis, We Will Rock You, Sweeney Todd, Follies etc) and jazz gigs. I also teach music tech, composition and bass as a peri.

I would really like to learn double bass as I enjoy jazz and because I started losing the odd gig where electric was less appropriate. Plus, on all the West End shows I've sat in on, they've said you really need to play both. Even in shows like Avenue Q require it, which is interesting.

So, working on advice, I purchased a 30year old Zellor for £525, and spent as much again getting new strings, new soundpost, adjustable bridge and a good set up by an excellent luthier near me called Martyn Bailey. I went on a jazz course over Summer with bass monster Mark Hodgson (Bill Bruford, Billy Cobham et al) which really highlighted how little I knew about playing double - I had just jumped in and was playing it (with enthusiasm) with horrible technique. The whole experience, while good over all knocked my confidence a bit, so I've now started regular lessons with a gentleman near me called Tony Hougham. Tony is the principal double bass of the Covent Garden Orchestra and a thoroughly nice man, treading the difficult line between friendliness and the teacherly respect.

I have had two lessons so far. The most difficult thing for me initially was the change of fingering from electric bass - instead of using the third finger, it's been difficult for me to use it just to support the fourth. So playing something as simple as a one octave scale is all a bit different. I am also finding it difficult to keep my thumb in position without it wanting to slide around towards the fingerboard, especially when I'm playing on the E string.

I am working through the half position exercises in Simandl and looking forward to moving to first position with Tony next week. I'm trying to learn properly and get my technique down from day 1 to avoid any annoyances later on - I've also bought a stool now so can sit down and play arco. It's also awakening my interest in classical music, which can only be a wonderful thing.

More after our next lesson....!

[franzbassist]

That's a great read Mike, and it sounds like your are enjoying the ride!

I must say it's lovely to see so many Basschatters taking the plunge into upright. I only started just over a year ago, and then only on an Aria EUB, but I haven't had so much fun in ages. My new BSX Allegro is very much a hybrid between EUB and a full upright, and I absolutely love it.

Happy Days!

Gareth

[endorka]

Good decision Mike; I made a similar choice about four years ago and am happy to report that it is all positive - the musical and work opportunities offered by playing the double bass are marvellous.

I endorse playing with the correct approach, as short cuts will only sting you later. One of these is remembering to play with your fingertips on the left hand as much as possible, as opposed to the side/flat bits common on bass guitar. It allows for more precise intonation.

Do you sit to play arco and stand for other gigs? Something else I found useful was to choose one position for everything and stick to it, this also helps with intonation. It's difficult enough to play correctly one way, never mind having to learn two different ways!

Jennifer

[NDH]

Hi Mike, thanks for posting this - makes me feel better about my struggle to make a good sound with the DB. I play electric bass in a functions band and EUB in a 4 piece [standards, 50's R&B]. I'm on my 5th classical DB lesson using a hired instrument. This bass has huge action which I am now getting used to, but I am looking forward to getting my own instrument and having the set up seen to.

My teacher is very good and will gently remind me about arm poisition, thumb poisition, finger position and my drooping bow, and be very positive if I actually play a phrase correctly. I have found myself struggling over scales that I have been able to play for years. I've been encouraged however, to find that focussed practice really does work and things are geting a bit more conforatble. Arm ache [lieft elbow mostly] tired hands, a bit of back ache all now OK.

I got over using the third finger quite quickly, although I use it lots on the bass guitar. My main target at the moment is to keep my thumb in the right position opposite the second finger. My main irritation is the poor tone I get when I'm concentrating on other things, such as thumb position. This is all down to bow technigue I think.

I was interested that you have bought a stool. I use a kitchen stool having been told that classical players all sit down; I find it quite comfortable but had wondered about getting the real thing.

Good luck with your venture and I'd be interested to hear how you are getting on after a few more lessons.

Nigel

[macclad]

[quote name='NDH' post='1038036' date='Nov 26 2010, 05:39 PM']Hi Mike, thanks for posting this - makes me feel better about my struggle to make a good sound with the DB. I play electric bass in a functions band and EUB in a 4 piece [standards, 50's R&B]. I'm on my 5th classical DB lesson using a hired instrument. This bass has huge action which I am now getting used to, but I am looking forward to getting my own instrument and having the set up seen to.

My teacher is very good and will gently remind me about arm poisition, thumb poisition, finger position and my drooping bow, and be very positive if I actually play a phrase correctly. I have found myself struggling over scales that I have been able to play for years. I've been encouraged however, to find that focussed practice really does work and things are geting a bit more conforatble. Arm ache [lieft elbow mostly] tired hands, a bit of back ache all now OK.

I got over using the third finger quite quickly, although I use it lots on the bass guitar. My main target at the moment is to keep my thumb in the right position opposite the second finger. My main irritation is the poor tone I get when I'm concentrating on other things, such as thumb position. This is all down to bow technigue I think.

I was interested that you have bought a stool. I use a kitchen stool having been told that classical players all sit down; I find it quite comfortable but had wondered about getting the real thing.

Good luck with your venture and I'd be interested to hear how you are getting on after a few more lessons.

Nigel[/quote] As afellow novice i can relate to yours and previous posts, and i face the the same problems ie thumb,collapsing hand etc!! hard work ahead then !!

[geoffbassist]

Hi mike.
great to hear your story. Your background sounds very similar to mine. I've really enjoyed studying classical double bass and would recommend it to any upright players. There are so many more shows etc available to good reading double bassists who can use the bow.

Saying that I'm still a jazz bassist, but my classical post grad completly changed my playing for the better.

Cheers Geoff

[27 frets]

Hi Mike

We have a lot in common.

I too live in Chelmsford and took up DB a couple of years ago, after years on bass guitar, having lessons with Tony - he's an excellent teacher, and he will really help with your technique: it's better to learn it right than 'unlearn' poor technique.

I've lacked time for lessons recently, which has been a pity.

I've also joined a local orchestra - nothing too serious, but great for developing ensemble skills (and counting bars rest!). I'm on my own there on DB, so some company there would be nice once you're feeling confident enough!

It would be good to meet up sometime - send me a PM if you're interested.

Regards
Peter

[TPJ]

It's great to see so many taking up DB. I've been an on again off again DB player for years. Although I love playing electric bass I must say that there is no gratification like playing DB. You get out what you put in and when your in a groove and your bass is singing, well, life aint all that bad.

[Mike]

Thanks for the interesting and supportive comments!

I feel like things are going well. I has my third lesson and Tony taught me some good exercises for improving my left hand and also for switching strings while bowing. It is ||: Eb Bb B Bb E F :|| and repeated from Bb and F , all in half position. We also started on first position. Since the lesson I have done the Simandl exercises and now feel very comfortable playing in both first and half position, but have not yet put them together. I'm sure the shifting between positions is regimented and Im scared of getting into bad habits by trying to do it myself.

For nostalgia purposes I tried to play it like i used to, fresh from bass guitar, using two fingers on my right hand and 'finger per fret' on my left and I was very pleased to see that it was almost completely alien to me. Not using the third, and supporting the fourth all the time has been easier to get used to then I feared.

I have had a new end pin fitted as mine was rattling a lot and buzzing, and also bought a nice new padded case as the previous one was way too big. I've now spent almost twice the cost of the bass on repairs and upgrades! However having a nice a big rubber foot instead of a bent metal blunt pin is much nicer!

Something I'm struggling with is the bowing. I find the bow quite heavy and have to keep putting it down after each excercise which lasts a few minutes. Sometimes I don't get a good sound which I think I'm putting down to not enough pressure on the strings.

I'm now comfortable sitting which before felt quite strange. I actually really like it. I found a great height adjustable stool in argos (rrp £40 but reduced to £26.66).

Anyway, more as I progress!

[OliverBlackman]

I think im at a very similar stage to you. I had 3 fantastic lessons with Jakesbass and now im just going through Simandl whenever time allows (not much at the minute) but iv got to the third position which redicuousloy is something liek page 17 out of 200. A long but fun journey ahead then

The hardest thing i find is bowing while reading, if i learn a piece my bowing sounds great and i barely get any squeaks or rub, but if i read whilst bowing i sometimes get all sorts of noises :@

[Mike]

3rd position?? Hark at you!!

I completely agree - bowing is so new to me, to also think about reading (not difficult at this moment as it's straightforward Simandl exercises) and left hand fingering (including intonation) is really causing some mental strain!

[27 frets]

[quote name='Mike' post='1049216' date='Dec 6 2010, 01:01 PM']Something I'm struggling with is the bowing. I find the bow quite heavy and have to keep putting it down after each excercise which lasts a few minutes. Sometimes I don't get a good sound which I think I'm putting down to not enough pressure on the strings.[/quote]

Bowing is definitely something which improves with experience and practice, and the tone you get isn't entirely down to what you're right hand/arm is doing, it's about grip, posture, how tense or otherwise you are, where and how you bow the strings, how you're fingering with the left hand....

What kind of bow are you using? I guess French type if you're learning with Tony, as he doesn't seem too into German bows, but what's it made of, and how heavy?

The bow that came with my bass was quite heavy (around 150g) and not very good at all - as my playing progressed I found my stamina gradually built up, but the tone still wasn't great. Things definitely picked up when I bought a better and lighter carbon fibre bow (I think it's the same as Jennifer's/Endorka's), possibly a better bet at that stage than going for pernambuco, which can be more fragile.

Tony liked it enough to ask where I'd got it, as another of his students was looking for a reasonable bow for pit playing, not wishing to endanger her more expensive pernambuco bow.

You're welcome to get in touch to give mine a try.

Peter

[NDH]

Thanks again for posting this. I've found this thread and the one about bowing very encouraging and useful.

However, as my bowing gets better I can just hear more clearly how much work I need to do on intonation!

I am interested to hear that you have used Simandl - my teacher hasn't mentioned it, but I found that using the quite long exercises in half and first position really helped to reduce the horrible scrapes and squeaks I was making with the bow.

I collect the new bass at the end of the week - mildy excited.

Nigel

[Bilbo]

Another plug for Neil Tarlton's 'Beginning Scales' and 'The Essentials of Sevcik' (put them into google and you will find them). The second of these is dedicated to bowing and I a finding it really useful.

Also, bow wise, I have a French one of these and I love it.

[url="http://www.stringemporium.com/carbon-fiber-upright-bass-bows.htm"]stringemporium carbon-fiber bow[/url]

[Mike]

[quote name='endorka' post='1037590' date='Nov 26 2010, 11:40 AM']Do you sit to play arco and stand for other gigs?

Jennifer[/quote]

Hi Jennifer, that is the initial plan. Saying that, I'm quite enjoying sitting so perhaps I'll be one of those guys. Not sure yet really. Will update when I have more experience!

[quote name='27 frets' post='1039895' date='Nov 28 2010, 01:31 PM']Hi Mike

We have a lot in common.

I too live in Chelmsford and took up DB a couple of years ago, after years on bass guitar, having lessons with Tony - he's an excellent teacher, and he will really help with your technique: it's better to learn it right than 'unlearn' poor technique.

I've lacked time for lessons recently, which has been a pity.

I've also joined a local orchestra - nothing too serious, but great for developing ensemble skills (and counting bars rest!). I'm on my own there on DB, so some company there would be nice once you're feeling confident enough!

It would be good to meet up sometime - send me a PM if you're interested.

Regards
Peter[/quote]

Sounds great Peter, I'll be in touch - thanks for sharing your experiences!

[quote name='27 frets' post='1049884' date='Dec 6 2010, 09:14 PM']What kind of bow are you using? I guess French type if you're learning with Tony, as he doesn't seem too into German bows, but what's it made of, and how heavy?

Yep, just a cheap Frenchie, carbonfibre but it seems a little heavy, or I'm just going to have to get used to it![/quote]


[quote name='NDH' post='1051175' date='Dec 7 2010, 11:58 PM']I collect the new bass at the end of the week - mildy excited.

Nigel[/quote]

Exciting, what have you got? I look forward to when I can upgrade in a few years to something nice!

[endorka]

[quote name='Mike' post='1053342' date='Dec 9 2010, 09:03 PM'][quote]
Do you sit to play arco and stand for other gigs?[/quote]
Hi Jennifer, that is the initial plan. Saying that, I'm quite enjoying sitting so perhaps I'll be one of those guys. Not sure yet really. Will update when I have more experience!
[/quote]

Interesting - this is something I would always advise against. When standing, the bass will be in a different position to than when you are seated, and consequently the left hand muscle memory you've developed in one position will not apply to the other. It is difficult enough to acquire good intonation without having to do all the work twice.

Because of this I suggest that people choose either seated or standing and stick to it. My own preference is for sitting, primarily because you can use your body to support the weight of the instrument; when standing, it is very easy to become dependent on the thumb of the left hand to prop the instrument up, not a good thing. Even those with really good standing technique seem to do this to some extent, and so there are devices like the "eggpin" that try to minimise this.

Jennifer

[BassBus]

I can only speak from my own experience, and I bow to Jenifer's greater experience, but I play both sitting and standing. It all depends on how fit my back is feeling. If your arms and hands have learnt muscle memory once they can learn it twice. That is surely part of playing any instrument, keep learning. Once we stop allowing our ability to evolve we might as well give up.I wouldn't say my thumb takes a lot of the preasure of holding the instrument up as the body is resting against my body about waist level.

[Mike]

Interesting. I would probably want to stand as I'm planning on playing jazz. But I'm learning classical technique from a classical teacher who always sits to play. He is happy for me to do whatever I want. Thanks for alerting me to this, I'll talk it over with Tony.

[endorka]

[quote name='BassBus' post='1053702' date='Dec 10 2010, 08:47 AM']I can only speak from my own experience, and I bow to Jenifer's greater experience, but I play both sitting and standing. It all depends on how fit my back is feeling. If your arms and hands have learnt muscle memory once they can learn it twice. That is surely part of playing any instrument, keep learning. Once we stop allowing our ability to evolve we might as well give up.I wouldn't say my thumb takes a lot of the preasure of holding the instrument up as the body is resting against my body about waist level.[/quote]

I wouldn't say I have greater experience at all, only different experience, and I like to hear about other people's.

I'm all for keeping learning, something I both preach and practice, but being a parsimonious sort I'd prefer to only learn something once if possible :-)

Jennifer

[endorka]

[quote name='Mike' post='1053834' date='Dec 10 2010, 10:54 AM']Interesting. I would probably want to stand as I'm planning on playing jazz.[/quote]

Students have said this to me before, and I find it puzzling. Why is it thought necessary to stand to play jazz? Standing does not give any playing advantage when doing so. My main concern with the students who mentioned this was that they liked the "image" involved with standing to play jazz, rather than being focused on the practicalities of playing the instrument.

I'm trying not to be pernickity/patronising about this, but it is something both myself and my bass tutor have come across, and neither of us can understand it :-)

Jennifer

[BassBus]

Interesting point, Jennifer. I remember seeing John Patitucci playing with Tommy Smith's all star band some years ago. He sat for the entire performance and, as usual, played briliantly.

[fatback]

[quote name='endorka' post='1053893' date='Dec 10 2010, 11:34 AM']Students have said this to me before, and I find it puzzling. Why is it thought necessary to stand to play jazz? Standing does not give any playing advantage when doing so. My main concern with the students who mentioned this was that they liked the "image" involved with standing to play jazz, rather than being focused on the practicalities of playing the instrument.

I'm trying not to be pernickity/patronising about this, but it is something both myself and my bass tutor have come across, and neither of us can understand it :-)

Jennifer[/quote]

It's maybe like conductors having to have big hair. They just have to, don't they?