Dingwall subliminal message!

[Sheldon Dingwall]

I appreciate the comments - good and bad. OK not so much the bad ones LOL

I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions.

Gimmick - I can say from experience that using fanned-frets has probably done more to hurt our sales than taking a safer route. Fanned-frets are the most obvious feature of our basses but they are only one ingredient of many that we use to achieve an end result. If we could figure out a way to get the results we're looking for, namely even feel and tone across the strings, smooth transition of tone up the neck with a more steady pitch in the higher frets of the low strings, increased clarity and focus, light-weight in combination with all of the above (that's one of the tougher things to pull off) we'd be all over it.

Fanned-frets are partially tied to increased scale length - at least for most of our instruments. I'm surprised to hear a Kubicki owner argue that increased scale length doesn’t make much difference. That's one of the basses that made me realize how much richer the drop-D was with a longer scale. By comparison de-tuning the E and leaving the clamp on makes the D sound muddier to my ears. One of our shops "test mules" is a fanned-fret 5 with three B-strings. One strung at 37", one at 35.5" and one at 34". This is the best test I can think of to evaluate the effects of scale length on the B with as many variables eliminated as possible. I know of know one else who can actually say they've done this test. The results are easily noticeable - not earth shattering but easily noticeable. The longer scale speaks with more clarity, articulation and is less "wonky" in the upper frets.

Thunderous, huge, solid - That's not what we're about. You can get those qualities with just about any scale length. We're about balance and a tight bottom-end. You're not likely going to hear much difference in a store or at home. At a club - especially a really rumbly or echo-prone one - a tighter bottom-end makes a huge difference.

Piano-like - That's not what we're about either. You can get a pretty good piano-tone out of our basses but that's not what we focus on. Purposely.

"Emperor's new clothes" - That fear keeps me up at night. All luthiers fall in love with an idea - it helps motivate them along a path. I see this all the time. At it's worst I get the idea that the concept just sounds so damn good that they don't test it to see if it does what they say. We're no different, we fall in love with concepts and "believe" they should work as we envision. Over the years however we’ve done a lot of testing to avoid the "Emperor's new clothes" syndrome. It's pretty disappointing when they don't work out. I can safely say that if it's on our bass, we've made sure it does what we say it does.

So not looking to offend just hopefully add a little clarity.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Sheldon Dingwall

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1050081' date='Dec 7 2010, 12:01 AM']I'm surprised to hear a Kubicki owner argue that increased scale length doesn’t make much difference. That's one of the basses that made me realize how much richer the drop-D was with a longer scale.[/quote]


You know Sheldon, I had never thought of it like that. I was looking at the varied scale length concept on Dingwall basses when I had a chance to look at it on one of my own. For the benefit of this thread, Sheldon definitely has a point. If I detune the E to D, it feels flappy and the bottom end loses clarity, punch and sustain. If I lift the D Clip (changing a 32" scale E string to a 36" scale D) the D rings through much stronger, and feels much much better to the fingers. It's tighter; but not excessively so, and feels much more satisfying and responsive. You get a lot more feedback through the string to your fingers, which in turn enhances to playing experience.

I wouldn't want the whole bass to be 36" scale, but in terms of making that D note a real "stand out" thing, it certainly works. However, I do still find myself drawn to thigns like Overwater as I'd like to try owning a full 36" scale bass at some point.

I think it has to be said, that a lot of people stick doggedly behind your basses. I recall one bloke on Talkbass who valued his above any Kubicki, or Fodera, or Alembic or whatever. The same has been mentioned here, that those that find the fanned fret thing to be a real boon enjoy it so much it effectively reshapes their bass collection to centre around Dingwall, and Dingwall's ability to make basses that fit their needs (the introduction of a Dingwall jazz bass for instance). I'd say Dingwall are quite comfortably the market leaders in this type of thing, and I expect that in years to come people will view Dingwall as the absolute in terms of the fanned fret concept, much like Status Graphite are seen as the ultimate purveyors of graphite technology in basses (no offense Modulus, Zon etc etc).

However Sheldon, your contributions here are much appreciated. Seeing your thought process and vision behind the basses put here in respect of what we've been discussing has been an eye opener. Perhaps I was guilty of focusing on the fanned frets instead of the bass as a whole (thats not to say they wern't great basses). Hopefully I'll have a chance to play a few more, but this time I'll concentrate on your vision of the basses rather than what I expect!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1050153' date='Dec 7 2010, 07:11 AM']However Sheldon, your contributions here are much appreciated.[/quote]

+1

[dbass]

I must admit to being a complete Dingwall freak since I first played one in Bass Direct in July.

After being endorsed by Warwick and owning 4 over the last 10 years I thought no other bass could touch them (and I'd played just about everything up to that point) until I played a Dingwall.

I don't even have the "boutique" one, just the Combustion and it's the best 5 string I've played. Even Warwick 5 Strings which are renowned for their beefy B string don't have anything on a Dingwall, especially when you play a gig with one, that's when it really shines and punches through.

I just find it "easy" and "effortless" to play? If that makes sense. They aren't for everyone but with everything in life, it's just an opinion.

(God I sound like a right Dingwall fanboy...oh wait...I am)

[Gust0o]

This has been quite some conversion, since I'm sure it was Wazoo who was crying out the virtues of the Big Al when it first arrived - though I'll happily stand corrected if that transpires to have been another user. That's something you should well take some credit from, Sheldon, in seeing your product compete in such circles.

I think it's still a way out of my league, in terms of playing styles. I remain too much of a luddite for any such finesse, but it's been a great little discussion to read through

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1050276' date='Dec 7 2010, 10:21 AM']....since I'm sure it was Wazoo who was crying out the virtues of the Big Al when it first arrived - though I'll happily stand corrected if that transpires to have been another user.[/quote]

This statement of yours annoyes me a little, and I am actually quite angry to read about it, seen as I feel free to make my own decisions, yes I've praised the Big Al when it first arrived, because being a 3 x single coil pickups, it was a departure from the usual Music Man standard of either single or double humbucker setup, and the introduction of these 3 single coils was like a breakthrough, which at the time I found extremely exciting and to this day I am still convinced that the amount of sounds you get out of a Big Al, in either passive or active mode is way ahead of the average bass in production today. However I retain the right to be re-schooled so to speak, and to be allowed to change my perceptions, and ultimately my mind when I am faced with a new instrument, in this case the Dingwall ABZ 5 which as I said in my previous post, destroyed all my previous preconceptions of what was good or excellent to me up to that point, the low B on the Dingwall it is something that must be experienced to be appreicated, also in my case the fanned frets worked really well and the overal feel and playabilty of the ABZ 5 is killer, so much there is to the advantaged of it compared to my previous basses that it would probably take me a whole page or two, in a nutshell, the fact that it has so much response from every note you play on any fret, the complete lack of dead spots on the neck, the superb intonation in places where other 5 strings are just so out of pitch its untrue, the perfetly low, yet totally noise free and effortless action are all elements that makes this bass something out of the ordinary, ultimately, I am not an ace player I get by in most band contests without a lot of skill or theory but as a tool this bass makes my life so much easier, in the fact that I can play better without having to stretch with a lot of finger pressure and tiring efforts.

At the end of the day I am a consumer and loyalty doesn't come into play, if I find something better that is more suited to me, why should I stick to something that I find to be of lesser interest / quality?

[b][i]..."Yeah it was Wazoo who was crying out the virtues of the Big Al"...[/i][/b] not anymore.

If I try something else tomorrow which is even better, then I am sure my present favourite best will suffer the same faith.

What's it got to do with anyone?

Edited December 7, 2010 by Grand Wazoo

[7string]

Just to add an opinion that the Combustion isn't that bad

I've had one for a few weeks now and it's an amazing piece of kit. The B is really even in feel and tone to the other strings and the fanned frets don't take long to get used to. I've played the ABZ and don't think that it's that much (if at all) better than the Combustion.

All in all, Dingwall make superb basses and if you have a chance to play one, then play one!

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='7string' post='1052177' date='Dec 8 2010, 10:06 PM']Just to add an opinion that the Combustion isn't that bad

I've had one for a few weeks now and it's an amazing piece of kit. The B is really even in feel and tone to the other strings and the fanned frets don't take long to get used to. I've played the ABZ and don't think that it's that much (if at all) better than the Combustion.

All in all, Dingwall make superb basses and if you have a chance to play one, then play one![/quote]

I don't doubt it, and as I've said my impression of the Combustion vs the ABZ could be down to a number of things, maybe the Comb. wasn't set up properly, certainly the action was a lot higher than the ABZ and perhaps the one in that shop might not have been a very good one. who knows? It could be that the ABZ was more "me" than the other would be. One thing is for sure the ABZ is definately lighter. I don't knock 'em I just think on that day I made the better choice.

[pantherairsoft]

Im glad Sheldon gave some input to this conversation and Im glad that he keeps an open mind to the negative feedback.

I do not own a Dingwall. I have ben considering one for some time though…

The Fanned fret idea interested me an awful lot and I got to try a couple of combustion basses about 6-7 months ago. While the fanned fret system shocked me into realising how natural the finger positions are with chords, the build quality and 'cheap' feel of the basses left me a little cold. At hat point in time I know the Combustion was a 'cheaper' model… but to me, the feel of the instrument, knobs, hardware and finish was similar to a mid-priced Yamaha in my local guitar store… around £450… not the £1200 that was asked for it!

I left that day thinking that Dingwall had effectively priced the fanned fret system at a £750 add on to an average bass (hope that makes sense)…

A few months later I was lucky enough to have a play on an ABZ. Given my previous experience I was not all that interested, but with a 'go on then' approach I played it. It took me about 60 seconds to realise that this was easily one of the most fantastically well made and well rounded basses I had EVER played. If the Combustion was £1200, this was worth £12,000…

They really were worlds apart. It felt fantastic, sounded crisp and hi-fi with well defined notes, most noticeably up the neck after the 14th fret. I am quite particular about my basses these days and mainly go down the custom route… but I would love to own an ABZ (I'd prefer an Active EQ due to the way I alter my sound live in real-time) and its changed my views of the Dingwall brand completely.

I'm not sold on the 36" B. It was great, but not more defined than the RIm Marseer I have, and somewhat less tight and defined than the GB Spitfire I had, both at 35". Yes the tension on the string was a little higher, but maybe my fingering style doesn't need the tension to keep the definition?

The only thing I think is a shame here is the combustions pricing to fell ratio… It either needs to be £400 cheaper, or have a few key change to up its game. Change those horrid control knobs for some hipshot O-rings, put a nicer finish on the back of the neck… small things that make a massive difference in players hands. The reason I think this is an important point, is that most places you find a Dingwall, its the Combustion thats in stock (certainly here in the UK)… and I'm prepared to put money on the fact that I'm not the only person that was put off trying other basses within the Dingwall range by the price and quality of the Combustion.

I know some of the points I raised here are negative, but the important ones are that the key elements of the Dingwall build are fantastic. The fanned fret system is revolutionary in terms of finger positioning and the tone and feel of the ABZ instruments are up there with the best in the world… I hope people that are disappointed with the Combustion series give other parts of the range a good go and don't turn there noses up at them like I did for so long

A Dingwall is on my rather small shipping list for the future…

Shep

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1050081' date='Dec 7 2010, 12:01 AM']I appreciate the comments - good and bad. OK not so much the bad ones LOL[/quote]


I put one of the bad comments but also a good one.


The bass doesn't suit my taste aesthetically (I'm sure you won't lose any sleep) but I think the advert was spot on, who played the bassline in the video? It's awsome.

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1053578' date='Dec 10 2010, 12:26 AM']I put one of the bad comments but also a good one.


The bass doesn't suit my taste aesthetically (I'm sure you won't lose any sleep) but I think the advert was spot on, [color="#FF0000"]who played the bassline in the video?[/color] It's awsome.[/quote]

He's an Italian artist called Alberto Rigoni. [url="http://www.albertorigoni.net"]http://www.albertorigoni.net[/url]

By the look on his website it doesn't look as if he is a Dingwall official endorser either.

[lojo]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1042230' date='Nov 30 2010, 12:32 PM']Where / what is the subliminal message? [/quote]

Surely if it where subliminal, you wouldn't notice it only subliminally know what it told you to do

[Sheldon Dingwall]

Some good feedback here. The neck finish and knobs are the first I've heard complaints about. Both are easy to deal with both at the factory level and at the consumer level. We get comments from both directions. Some players used to meaty necks prefer the Combustion over the ABZ, others prefer the slender feel of the ABZ, others who are used to the even slimmer Z-series necks thing the AB necks are too bulky. Origin of perspective really influences first impressions.

Off topic a little. It's been on my mind to comment on the Kubicki X-factor since it's been mentioned in this thread a couple of times. There's a bass that deserves more recognition. I bow down to the brilliance of Phillip Kubicki. He's a real gentleman too.

[markstuk]

Hi,

I'm picking up an ABZ on Thursday, and my sole criticism was that the knobs feel cheap.... Easy to fix for £30 but.......

Cheers


Mark


[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1056345' date='Dec 12 2010, 07:13 PM']Some good feedback here. The neck finish and knobs are the first I've heard complaints about. Both are easy to deal with both at the factory level and at the consumer level. We get comments from both directions. Some players used to meaty necks prefer the Combustion over the ABZ, others prefer the slender feel of the ABZ, others who are used to the even slimmer Z-series necks thing the AB necks are too bulky. Origin of perspective really influences first impressions.

Off topic a little. It's been on my mind to comment on the Kubicki X-factor since it's been mentioned in this thread a couple of times. There's a bass that deserves more recognition. I bow down to the brilliance of Phillip Kubicki. He's a real gentleman too.[/quote]

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1056345' date='Dec 12 2010, 07:13 PM']Off topic a little. It's been on my mind to comment on the Kubicki X-factor since it's been mentioned in this thread a couple of times. There's a bass that deserves more recognition. I bow down to the brilliance of Phillip Kubicki. He's a real gentleman too.[/quote]


Phil is absolutely the man and IMO, the most forward thinking bass designer of the 80's, a true visionary. And it's not just the quality of the design and construction, but the tone he created. As good as it gets, and he got it first time around. I believe he may now be retired, or at least in semi-retirement, having moved out of California to New Hampshire. I emailed him on the Kubicki website address, so I think he may be winding up his operation (which has been on the cards for a while now).

They are basses that are more immediately recognised in the US than in the UK, and there are a lot more available there. Phil initially sold them direct, and the "Fender Era" was little more than a distribution agreement between Phil and Fender so he could take advantage of their distribution network, putting them in stores at a time when the demand for the basses was at an all time high. I'm not sure if they ever had a UK distributor. However, I did see a white 1989 Ex Factor for sale a while ago in the UK, #1785 - I used to have a white Ex Factor - #1777!

[Sheldon Dingwall]

I was talking to my sales manager yesterday about a new potential endorser for us who was a long time Kubicki endorser. He said that he asked Phil years ago for suggestions for a really good 5-string and Phil said Dingwall. Again, a true gentleman.

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='markstuk' post='1056387' date='Dec 12 2010, 01:46 PM']Hi,

I'm picking up an ABZ on Thursday, and my sole criticism was that the knobs feel cheap.... Easy to fix for £30 but.......

Cheers


Mark[/quote]

Those knobs are the opposite of cheap - they're handmade by us. Let me know if they are the new ones or the old ones.

[markstuk]

Hi Sheldon,

I believe they're the "old" ones as the guy I'm buying from said that newer knobs were available from you.. I was not having a dig by the way, just that this was the only thing I could find fault with.. Reminds me of a good friend of mine who when he was living in Texas had his mother in law visit from the UK - she was always critical of everything Mark did for her daughter.. As they sat having dinner, the sun setting over the Gulf, she looked out over the idyllic scene and said "the seagulls are smaller than the ones we have in Southend"...

Cheers


Mark

PS - do the pots have splined shafts or screw locking type shafts? :-)

Cheers

Mark

Edited December 15, 2010 by markstuk

[Grand Wazoo]

What can I say, my Dingwall ABZ has totally changed my life and... me too

See for yourself!!

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='markstuk' post='1059248' date='Dec 15 2010, 01:11 AM']Hi Sheldon,

I believe they're the "old" ones as the guy I'm buying from said that newer knobs were available from you.. I was not having a dig by the way, just that this was the only thing I could find fault with.. Reminds me of a good friend of mine who when he was living in Texas had his mother in law visit from the UK - she was always critical of everything Mark did for her daughter.. As they sat having dinner, the sun setting over the Gulf, she looked out over the idyllic scene and said "the seagulls are smaller than the ones we have in Southend"...

Cheers


Mark

PS - do the pots have splined shafts or screw locking type shafts? :-)

Cheers

Mark[/quote]

Hey Mark, no worries.

The volume and tone are 6 mm split-splined and the rotary switch is 1/4" solid. All of our knobs have a 1/4" bore so there will be a small brass tube inside the V/T knobs to size them down to 6 mm. There should also be a plastic shim in the pot shaft slot to keep the set screw from bending the prongs. If you replace the V/T knobs with push-on style remove the plastic shim.

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1059888' date='Dec 15 2010, 01:04 PM']What can I say, my Dingwall ABZ has totally changed my life and... me too

See for yourself!!

[/quote]

In Canada at this time of year, that's what you'll look like if you go outside without your winter jacket LOL.

[markstuk]

Thanks Sheldon,

More than anything it impresses me that you're happy to help like this personally... It's really appreciated...

All the best


Mark

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1060065' date='Dec 15 2010, 09:35 PM']Hey Mark, no worries.

The volume and tone are 6 mm split-splined and the rotary switch is 1/4" solid. All of our knobs have a 1/4" bore so there will be a small brass tube inside the V/T knobs to size them down to 6 mm. There should also be a plastic shim in the pot shaft slot to keep the set screw from bending the prongs. If you replace the V/T knobs with push-on style remove the plastic shim.[/quote]

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1060067' date='Dec 15 2010, 09:39 PM']In Canada at this time of year, that's what you'll look like if you go outside without your winter jacket LOL.[/quote]

Trust me, Sheldon, London might not be Canada but we are also freezing our nuts and bolts here.

This was only last week

[Sheldon Dingwall]

Holy Crap!

[Sheldon Dingwall]

I recognize that the comparison to a Yamaha was to illustrate the problem we may face when players first try the Combustion. I'll be looking into this further to see what we can do because that's an important point.

I think I mentioned before that the real benefits of what we do become more apparent in a live or practice setting. Here's a comment I noticed today from a Yamaha owner on talkbass who bought a Combustion.

"Been telling the guys in the band about my "new" Combustion and they were a little skeptical about the whole thing. They were really happy with the sound I was getting from my Yamaha TR5BII and were wondering why I was considering changing it. My wife couldn't understand why I wanted one either.

Had our first practice with it tonight. Just to give it a work out we played a pile of stuff we don't normally play on stage. Started off with some Rodney Crowell, switched to Fats Domino, followed up with some Dire Straits, jammed a good long time to Stormy Monday, some 60's surf music and finished off with some Bluegrass (not the kind you can smoke). Everyone was absolutely blown away with the sound of it. No more questions on why I wanted to change, only why did I wait so long to get one. My wife was totally blown away. First time she has ever commented about the sound of any bass I've ever played and that's after 38 years of her listening to the bands I've played in.

I could not believe the range in sound I could get by merely moving my right hand just in front of the middle pup, over the middle pup (my usual spot) and back to the bridge one. It was like dialing up a total EQ change."

To me the most significant comment was from his wife - a non-musician. I've been hearing the same thing from our customers for years. The reason I think this is significant is that as a performer (unless you're Victor Wooten), the majority of your audience will be non-musicians. They are the ones we need to connect with to be successful. We need to give the non-musician a reason to leave their computer, gaming system, home theater etc. and come and hear you play. It's become my opinion that the bass player is the most important link in this process.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Sheldon Dingwall